Testimonies

Goldsmid, Sir Julian | Day 6

Witness Type: Candidate / MP

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 18

Witness Testimony:

• 5646.

  Did you tell Mr. Edwards of those applications ? — I did, and complained of them very much.

• 5647.

  I should like to ask you this. I understand you to say that in your experience the expenditure for the PUBLIC-HOUSES is more than 5L., and as much as 25L. per house ? —Certainly.

• 5648.

  In what way would that be so ? — In this way, that in the first place, I believe it is legitimate, if you have a COMMITTEE ROOM, to have clerks in it, and it is legitimate for the clerks to be fed, and somehow or other those bills mount up extraordinarily. For instance, one thing I saw, about which I made no observation, because I knew it was futile, was this, I went downstairs at Denne’s house, and in the clerk’s room I saw some bottles of champagne and beer upon the table at 10 in the morning. When I saw that, I knew that the accounts must be very large, and how can one control it ?

• 5649.

  Then you say that under the cover of supplying refreshments to clerks and persons employed in the election you find that ? — A number of people are fed and drink at your expense. Besides that, there are a number of other things which they often charge you for. I have seen a lot of county court cases in which these things have come out.

• 5650.

  Did you in any way sanction that ? — Certainly not.

• 5651.

  Did you do your best to discourage it ? — Certainly. I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

• 5652.

  You are speaking, I suppose, of the central COMMITTEE ROOM ? — Yes ; Denne’s. I slept there two nights, Monday night and Tuesday night, and Wednesday evening Lady Goldsmid came there, and we moved, I was very glad to get out of it, to PRINCE OF WALES terrace.

• 5653.

  I understand you to say it was known here on Friday morning that you had the intention of petitioning ? — I do not say that I gave instructions to Mr. Edwards to have prepared for me lists of the PUBLIC-HOUSES on both sides, because I wanted them for the purpose of the petition afterwards.

• 5654.

  When were those instructions given ? — I believe on Friday. I may say he gave me the papers, I believe, on Saturday, but I am not certain ; either Saturday or Monday. He gave me the papers which Mr. Lewis has I think. You have those papers, I think, Mr. Lewis ? (Mr Lewis). Yes. (Mr. Holl). We should like to have them. (Mr. Lewis). I have not them with me, sir ; they shall be furnished to you ; they shall be sent down by the next post.

• 5655.

  (Mr. Holl.) You think you received those papers some time on Saturday ? — Either Saturday or Monday.

• 5656.

  Being lists of the PUBLIC-HOUSES that had been engaged on either side ? — Yes, except one which I think Mr. Emmerson had not given me. I sent to Sandwich for some purpose. I think Mr. Emmerson had not sent me one of his lists, and my secretary, the very day I re- turned to London, Wednesday, the day after the election, wrote to Mr. Emmerson, and asked him for it. Is not that so, Mr. Emmerson ? (Mr. Emmerson). — Yes, that is so.

• 5657.

  (Mr. Holl.) Did you intimate to Mr. Edwards at the time you asked him for the lists what your object was ? — I think I said to him “ for a petition.” I may say I collected also the bills of the REGATTA, and a number of other things, for the petition.

• 5658.

  When was that ? — The same time Mr. Edwards collected them for me.

• 5659.

  So you think it was known on Friday or Saturday that you had the intention of petitioning ? — I cannot say, I think it was known, but I think Mx. Edwards understood I would do it. I have no knowledge on the point how far it was circulated on the Friday or Saturday.

• 5660.

  But you think it was known to him ? — Certainly ; otherwise what did I want those lists for.

• 5661.

  You might have asked him for the list, having in your own mind the intention of petitioning, but it was not communicated perhaps. I understand, as far as you remember, you communicated to him what your object was ? — Yes ; my impression is I did.

• 5662.

  (Mr. Jeune.) In every previous election which you have been engaged in, have you paid the election expenses after the election was over ? — I have paid some on account, varying according to the place, and I have had all the bills afterwards paid through the agent.

• 5663.

  The great mass of the expenses in each election, the seven in which you have been engaged, has been paid after the election is over ? — The mass of the expenses has.

• 5664.

  I suppose when you came down here you did not expect that the case of Deal and Sandwich would differ from other oases in which you had been engaged ? — Quite so ; that is why I declined to give more at first than200L.

• 5665.

  You say you saw Mr. Belsey about this money on Wednesday evening, was it not early Thursday morning ? — He was going back to Rochester, in any case, that morning on his own business. He came from Rochester expressly to speak for me, and went back very early in the morning.

• 5666.

  You made no secret, I mean ? — Certainly not.

• 5667.

  Are Messrs. Foord solicitors at Rochester ? — No ; they are the largest builders in the district.

• 5668.

  And they have had previous money transactions with you ; they have laid out money for you before ? — For 10 years ; all sorts of things.

• 5669.

  I forget how long you sat for Rochester ? — Ten years.

• 5670.

  And they, I suppose, were cashing supporters of yours during the whole of that time ? — Yes ; and men on whom I have the most complete reliance ; a large and important firm.

• 5671.

  They have acted as your committee, I suppose, at Rochester ? — Yes.

• 5672.

  And, I suppose, helped to conduct the election for you ? — Yes. Dr. Steele is chairman, and Alderman Foord, one of the members of the firm, is vice-chairman of the Liberal committee, and always take an active part in politics. He is one of the leading magistrates and people there.

• 5673.

  At Rochester, do they have anything to do with managing the monetary affairs of the election on your behalf ? — Not in the least. All my expenditure upon registration they kindly pay for me ; all my office expenses, all my subscriptions, and everything. They attend to many private matters for me, and pay money for me in that way, and for my private affairs. I can give you the name of the property they bought for me, if you wish it.

• 5674.

  I do not think we need trouble about details. In that way they were, I will not say in the habit, but they had constantly laid out sums of money for you, and you repaid them from time to time ? — Yes, every year. I sometimes settle up with them every six months, and sometimes every year.

• 5675.

  So they had a sort of running account with you ? —Yes.