Testimonies

Goldsmid, Sir Julian | Day 18

Witness Type: Candidate / MP

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 6

Witness Testimony:

• 19235.

  (The Witness) I am here to answer any further questions which the Commissioners may wish to put to me, and I have to thank the Commissioners for offering to adjourn on account of my state of health. I am very unwell, suffering from a severe liver attack, and other things, and my doctor says that I must get away. (Mr. Jeune.) I do not think it will be necessary to trouble you much. I see, first of all, there is a cheque drawn for Mr Edwards upon May 11th, 1880; that would be upon the Tuesday ? — Yes, the very morning I first saw Mr Edwards after my arrival. I got there at 7 o’clock upon Monday night.

• 19236.

  At that time you had that cheque, and that cheque only, upon your London and Westminster Bank ? — Yes.

• 19237.

  When did you receive the cheque book from your secretary ? — I received it, I believe, upon Friday morning, but it may have been the last thing upon Thursday night, at 11 o’clock.

• 19238.

  I see here a cheque dated 13th May to Mr Robson for the widows’ fund; that would be Thursday. That was a subscription, or something of that kind ? — Yes. I am almost certain I sent it upon the Friday.

• 19239.

  It is dated upon the 13th of May ? — Yes. I can explain it: I received the cheque book late upon Thursday night, or early Friday morning; my own opinion is that it was Friday morning, but my secretary does not remember it, and I drew four cheques, three dated the 13th May, and the fourth dated the 14th May, which was a charitable donation. I believe I drew all the cheques at the same time on the Friday morning before I went to Mr Edwards.

• 19240.

  I see that these cheques are dated the 13th, but your impression is that they were drawn upon the 14th ? — Yes, quite so.

• 19241.

  When did you write to your secretary for your cheque book ? — My impression is, very early upon Thursday morning, so as to go off by the next post, or it might have been very late upon Wednesday night.

• 19242.

  Can you fix the time when you received it ? — I believe it was Friday morning. My impression is that it was by the same post as I received a letter from Mr Belsey, saying that Messrs Foord would send the money which I had asked them to send to Mr Edwards at Sandwich.

• 19243.

  Was your secretary in London at that time ? — He lives a little way out of London.

• 19244.

  Did you write to him in London ? — I do not remember. I usually write to my own address, and when he goes there he receives the letters.

• 19245.

  You did not want this money, necessarily, in Sandwich or Deal before the Saturday ? — On Tuesday morning was my first interview with Mr Edwards, and he asked me for a lump sum, I cannot remember whether it was £2500 or £2000, for the election, and I told him I was not accustomed to pay beforehand, and so on. I gave him the first cheque upon Wednesday morning, and he asked for more, and I gave him £320 on the Wednesday afternoon, after I had been out canvassing all day, and before I went to meet my wife at the station. I went to speak to Mr Edwards, I believe it was about the flags, objecting to them again, and Mr Edwards then told me he had spent all the money I had given him, and he wanted more. I had not much time to spare, and I told him I thought the expenditure was extravagant. Of course I saw it was, and he stated he must have more money to go on with for the purpose of providing for the election. I said I wanted to retire, and I would have retired if it had not been for what is called fealty to the party, that is to say, where you enter upon a fight you must fight. I should have been very glad if I could have retired, and left the whole thing alone. I told him I should decide next morning whether I should retire or not, and I asked my friend Mr Belsey whether he thought I had better retire or not, seeing the way in which the election was being conducted, and then he said he thought, as a matter of fealty to the party, I should go on, and I decided to go on. And also I decided it would be better to give Mr Edwards a lump sum down, and I told Mr Belsey to ask for £1200 or £1500. I asked the Foords to send it to me, because Mr Edwards pressed me for money, and I knew the Foords would do anything to oblige me as personal friends, who, I believe, have a great regard for me. I told Mr Belsey I should like him to convey that message, and he understood it, and I received a note from Mr Belsey the following morning to say that he had accomplished his mission, and the Foords would send the money.

• 19246.

  You said you did not care about having the money before the Friday or Saturday ? — I could not have it at the earliest before Friday. My message was to ask the Foords to let me have £1200 or £1500, as my agent was pressing me, and, as a single proof that it was so, I may say I was mobbed upon the Saturday by a lot of people who wanted to be paid, and I referred them to Mr Edwards, and they said they wanted the money to buy themselves victuals.

• 19247.

  Was it your opinion that £2000 would be about the cost of the election ? — That I think is what I had been told by Mr Emmerson. I am not sure whether he did not say more. I think that was the lowest figure mentioned to me.

• 19248.

  If that was so, why did you think it necessary that you should have the whole of that amount in his hands before the day of the polling ? — Because Mr Edwards told me that everything was paid in Deal. I discussed Sandwich very little, and I understood that Mr. Edwards was the pay agent. I never paid any money to Mr Emmerson at all, excepting one sum that I mentioned before, and that was of course a legitimate expenditure, and the fee to the returning officer. I understood that Mr Edwards was pay agent, and he said that everything was paid before the election, whereas my practice had always been to pay a moderate sum on account, and to pay the agent afterwards when the election was over, and I think that is the usual practice.

• 19249.

  Did you understand that this £1500 was to be spent upon the legitimate purposes of the election ? — I think I mentioned before that part of it could not be legitimately spent, as I knew part of my previous £520 had not been spent upon legitimate things, because I do not call it legitimate to have all these banners and flags, watchers and clerks, and canvassers and board-men. I was complaining of it daily, and they undertook not to do it, but they did it all the same. My time there was very short, only seven days altogether. I thought I was responsible, because I have always understood that if your agent, or those that represent you, appoint canvassers, and all those sort of people, the candidate must pay.

• 19250.

  Did you suppose that all the election expenses, which you said you thought would be about £2000, would have to be paid upon the Saturday before the polling day ? — Monday was bank holiday, and there were to be paid all the persons employed as messengers before the election, and it is wondered how greedy that class of persons are, and it was that class of persons so largely employed. There were also the boatmen employed for these poles. I was complaining daily about it, and I mentioned it to five or six friends who were down with me, and several of them went in with me to the agent on various occasions, and I complained about the expenditure, and they promised that it should be stopped, but they went on just the same. All those men had to be paid, and, in fact, I have never seen an election where so much money had to be paid in that way.

• 19251.

  £2000 was nearly the whole of the amount that you thought the election would cost ? — From £2000 to £3000 I think I had been told, and the only other expenditure I knew of was the fee to the agent.

• 19252.

  That could be perfectly well paid afterwards. Did you think there could be anything like £2000 necessary to be paid before the polling day ? — I did think so, and I think that if anybody had seen the place they would imagine even more would be spent in the way they were going on.

• 19253.

  Did you think that there could be anything like £2000 necessary to be paid upon the Saturday ? — I did not go into their arrangements, but Mr Edwards told me that he wished to make all arrangements beforehand for the payment of the people employed, and the preparation for the election.

• 19254.

  Would there be any difficulty in getting your cheque book by Saturday morning? You did not want it until Saturday? Assuming you wanted so much, and you knew your want of it as early as Thursday morning or Wednesday night, what difficulty would there have been in getting your cheque book upon the London and Westminster bank by Saturday morning ? — I do not imagine there would be any difficulty; I wrote to my secretary, who gets everything for me. I never go to the bank except when he is away for his holiday. Talking the matter over with Mr Belsey, and having been accustomed for many years to ask Mr Foord to do anything for me that may turn up, it seemed a very ordinary matter to ask him to send me £1500.

• 19255.

  You looked upon it simply as an ordinary way of getting money ? — They would pay anything for me, I am quite certain. One of them is a trustee of mine, for a particular purpose.

• 19256.

  Of course the effect of this was, as you will see, that neither in your pass book, nor upon any document at all, or any scrap of paper even, with the exception of that little sort of acknowledgment that Mr Emmerson gave, would there be any record whatever of these 1500 sovereigns coming into the borough four days before the election ? — I did not know that 1500 sovereigns were coming. I asked for £1500, and I did not specify that it should come in any way. As far as I remember, I did not say anything about the method of payment, but only asked them to send £1500.

• 19257.

  You see the effect was that this money came in this way into the borough four days before the election with absolutely no trace of it in your books ? — It came to my agent. I have had many agents, and I have always known my agents to endeavour to guide me as to what was right for a candidate to do, and to be anxious, for their own sakes, to do the right thing; and I must say when Mr Hugessen suggested to me that I could put implicit confidence in Mr Emmerson, I never thought he would be glad to get me into a mess, or himself into a mess, and I was introduced by him to Mr Edwards as the other agent. I never heard of him till that moment, and I should not suppose that a solicitor of standing would either put himself or his client in a false position. It was with Mr Edwards that I discussed money matters.

• 19258.

  Relying upon the opinion of Mr Edwards, you thought there would be no danger or ambiguity in taking this step, and having the money brought in this way ? — I did not specify gold. The money was coming from Messrs Foord, and anybody who knew the kindness that they have always shown me would not be surprised at my asking them to send it. I see comments have been made about it, but I am free to acknowledge that they have shown me personally the greatest kindness, and they have attended to various matters of an entirely private nature. I do not say money matters, but private matters.

• 19259.

  Did it not strike you, having great experience in elections, as a thing that was at least highly ambiguous to bring £1500 into the borough at that time, and in that way ? — No, it did not strike me as ambiguous, because they were my personal friends, and known to be my personal friends in Rochester, and there were also involved in it my agents. I did not ask them to conceal it, and I believe I mentioned it to two or three friends. I know that I mentioned it to Mr Lewis the first moment I went there.

• 19260.

  Mr. Lewis was your solicitor, and it was after the election. Besides Mr Belsey, did you mention it to anybody at the time ? — My impression is that I did, but I am not certain.

• 19261.

  You are not so certain that you would wish to give the name ? — I do not think that I should be right in doing so without asking the gentleman, but I believe I did mention it to one gentleman, though I cannot be certain.

• 19262.

  You are a better judge of that than I am. You see what I am driving at; if you did mention it to other people I daresay you would wish to mention the fact ? — I believe I did mention it to my friend Mr Otway, who was down there, and who knew that the Foords had constantly done business for me. I am not sure of it, and I do not know whether he would be able to speak to it or not.

• 19263.

  Did you mention it to anybody else ? — I do not think I should, if you ask me, because there was nobody else of sufficient intimacy with whom I should discuss personal and private matters. For instance, there was young Mr Mellor, who has been referred to as a young man whom I know and like. I have known his father for years, but I never discussed with him my expenditure, or thought of doing so, except discussing the monstrous expenditure in flags and so on.

• 19264.

  Did it not strike you that there was anything ambiguous, or capable of misconstruction, in your bringing money into the borough at that time and in that way ? — No, not to my agent. If I had brought it to anybody else it would have struck me. I came to that decision two days and a half after I arrived there without knowing much about either Mr Emmerson or Mr Edwards, beyond being told by Mr Hugessen that Mr Emmerson was a gentleman in whom I could have perfect confidence.