Testimonies

Goldsmid, Sir Julian | Day 6

Witness Type: Candidate / MP

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 18

Witness Testimony:

• 5556.

  (Mr. Jeune.) The 14th of May is the date of the cheque, so that it was written on the Thursday apparently ? — Monday was the 10th, so the 14th would be Friday.

• 5557.

  You are right, Friday was the 14th ; and the cheque is dated the 14th of May ? — Why I put 210L. is that I always vary my cheques with odd pounds, because I am sorry to say I have to pay a great many cheques for 200L. and 300L. for various reasons to different people.

• 5558.

  (Mr. Holl.) Do you remember whether anything of this kind took place. Mr. Emmerson told us that in the course of a conversation he had with you, you told him, when speaking to him about money matters, that you would have money brought to you, or “ money will be sent down, but I don’t want to be bothered with it myself.” Do you remember that ? — I told him I think on Saturday. Lady Goldsmid and I went over to the nomination ; we went by train, and walked up to the polling place, and Mr. Emmerson was good enough to meet us, I think.

  (Mr. Emmerson.) I did.

• 5559.

  (Mr. Jeune.) When was that ; on the Saturday morning ? — Yes ; I am not fond of doing more business than I can help on Saturday, but I went over to the nomination. I left Lady Goldsmid after being duly nominated, and walked about with one or two gentlemen, and we came back by a later train in the day — I think three o’clock, and I believe I made some such observation as, “ You will receive the money from Rochester to-day.”

• 5560.

  I do not quite understand. Was this 210L. paid to Mr. Emmerson in anticipation of the payments to be made to the returning officer ? — Yes, for the returning officer.

• 5561.

  You paid him on Friday, and were nominated on Saturday ? — Yes.

• 5562.

  Is the payment to the returning officer always made before the nomination ? — It is always done in my experience.

  (Mr. Emmerson.) It is generally done before the morning of the nomination; but it so happened in this case that the payment to the returning officer was made on the morning of the nomination. It has not generally been the case ; and besides, we don’t know the actual amount, but pay my estimated amount for expenses ; there was 100L. for Sir Julian Goldsmid ; and Mr. Hughes paid 100L. for Mr. Crompton Roberts.

  (Mr. Holl) You told us in your evidence you had written to Sir Julian Goldsmid for money to pay the returning officer.

  (Mr. Emmerson.) Yes. I don’t know that I said to Sir Julian Goldsmid the object I wanted it for ? — Yes, you did; you told me what for. I may say I have usually paid myself the returning officer beforehand. I should say I paid every returning officer at Rochester, and that I can remember, except in the county, when I stood for Mid Surrey years ago.

• 5563.

  (Mr. Holl.) Do you remember saying anything of that sort to Mr. Emmerson in the course of any application by him, or any conversation with him with respect to money, that you would have money brought to you, but that you did not want to be bothered with it yourself. “I shall make some other arrangement ; it shall be sent to you.” Do you remember anything of that kind ? — No, I told him he was going to have, or rather Mr. Edwards was going to have, some money from Rochester from my kind friends and supporters, Messrs. Foord.

• 5564.

  You did tell him that ? — Certainly I told him that ; but that was on the Saturday morning, I think, when we were walking about the town.

• 5565.

  Did you tell Mr. Edwards that money would be sent down ? — On Thursday morning, after I had made the arrangement with Mr. Belsey, I went to Mr. Edwards and told him ; and on the Friday morning I told him that I had received a note from Mr. Belsey to say Messrs. Foord would be good enough to send it for me, and I told him the train ; and in consequence of my telling him the train, he went over to Sandwich to meet Mr. Foord.

• 5566.

  Why should you think it desirable to have the 1,500L. sent down from Rochester ? What was your reason for thinking it better than drawing a cheque here ? — I had not got a cheque at the time and I was quite certain they would send the money, and I did not know when I should receive my cheques.

• 5567.

  You could have drawn a cheque on plain paper ? — I have never done such a thing in my life. I have seen at clubs men giving I.O.U.’s on plain paper, but I have never drawn a cheque on plain paper in my life.

• 5568.

  That did not occur to you ? — It never occurred to me till you suggested it now, and I do not think I should like to do it now.

• 5569.

  You had no account at the bank here, I understand ? — None.

• 5570.

  You did not make any application to them to advance you money ? I presume they would have done so ? — I did not ask them. I did not know what bank there was here. I did not ask anybody. I had no friends here. I had never seen anybody from Deal, I think.

• 5571.

  As Mr. Belsey was going back you preferred to ask him to get the money forwarded to you ? — Yes; Mr. Belsey, being an intimate friend of mine, knew all my affairs, I believe, in that way.

• 5572.

  Had you any other reason at all for having the money sent down that way other than you thought it was convenient to have it from Messrs. Foord ? — I had no other reason.

• 5573.

  I understand, having made that arrangement with Mr. Belsey, you communicated it to Mr. Edwards, and on the following morning you had a note from Mr. Belsey informing you it was coming ? — Yes.

• 5574.

  Was that a note or telegram ? — An ordinary note by post.

• 5575.

  Have you preserved that note ? — No; I am sorry to say I have not. I received 500 or 600 notes sometimes m one week, and sometimes a hundred only. I should be crowded with papers if I kept them all.

• 5576.

  You recollect the fact of having heard from Mr. Belsey at that time ? — Yes.

• 5577.

  And in consequence of that Mr. Edwards went over to Sandwich ? — Yes, and I told him the train Mr. Ford was coming by.

• 5578.

  I understand you to say that though you knew this money was coming, and notwithstanding you had made arrangements that this money should come down, you wished to pay Mr. Edwards, and so gave him your cheque in exchange for the cheque you had drawn for the purpose of meeting the expenses — the 320L. cheque ? —I got back the Bank of England cheque for the reason I gave you.

• 5579.

  You gave your cheque to redeem your Bank of England cheque, if I may say so, which you had handed to him ? — Quite so.

• 5580.

  Did you at the time you made this arrangement with Mr. Belsey anticipate that the expenses would amount to as much as 2,000L. ? — Mr. Emmerson, I think, had told me 2,000L. to 3.000L., and I cannot remember, and, therefore, I do not like to say ; but I believe the figure that Mr. Edwards mentioned to me was 2,000L. as a commencement, and I made a sort of rough calculation.

• 5581.

  You had given Mr. Edwards 200L., and that with the 1,500L. you sent him would make 1,700L. ? — No, I had given him 200L. and 300L.

• 5582.

  Not when you made the arrangement with Mr. Belsey ; — Yes, I had.

• 5583.

  I beg your pardon, I see you had ? — On Tuesday morning, Wednesday morning, and Thursday morning.

• 5584.

  Yes, it was my mistake. I had forgotten the Bank of England cheque for which the other cheque was given ? — The other was redemption.

• 5585.

  I quite understand that. That would have made altogether 2,000L. ? — Yes, and I did not mean to give any more.