Testimonies

Goldsmid, Sir Julian | Day 18

Witness Type: Candidate / MP

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 6

Witness Testimony:

• 19265.

  But would your having confidence in your agent be likely to remove any ambiguity or construction that might be otherwise placed upon the act ? — It appears to me that the agent is responsible to see that nothing is done which can in any way affect the position of the candidate, and I have an agent principally for that purpose.

• 19266.

  Did you give any instructions either to Mr Edwards or Mr Emmerson as to the disposition of this money ? — No, certainly not.

• 19267.

  You know now, as a fact, that the greater part of this money was promptly spent by Mr Emmerson and Mr Edwards in direct bribery ? — I think not, as far as I can see.

• 19268.

  Take it from me, a considerable part of it, if not all, did ? — I understand not, but I have not read the whole of the evidence.

• 19269.

  A good deal over £1000 at any rate. I understood that Mr Edwards and other people had paid a lot of money out of their own pockets, because I imagined, from reading the evidence, that a good deal of it was spent upon the Friday, the moment it arrived, and a good deal more upon the Saturday.

• 19270.

  You may take it from me, I think, that both Mr Edwards and Mr Emmerson considered this money applicable for that purpose, and they did, within a very short time of its coming, immediately proceed to spend it in direct personal bribery ? — I did not know that Mr Emmerson had a penny of that money. I knew it before I came to the Commission, but I did not know it till long after the election was over, and therefore, as regards Mr Emmerson spending money in bribery, the thought never struck me of its being possible until I saw his evidence.

• 19271.

  Well, he did, you see ? — I could not tell that.

• 19272.

  Would you have said the same thing about Mr Edwards ? — I knew nothing about Mr Edwards spending money in bribery. I knew that he had authorised the things I disapproved of, and strongly disapproved of; and let me give an example, though I mentioned it before – the band. When I was out canvassing upon the Friday with a man named King I learned that there was a custom at every Deal election to have a band. I knew that a band was illegal, and I went specially to Mr Edwards to tell him not to have a band, and Mr Edwards said, “Very well, but it had always been the custom, and people did not mind it on either side.” I said, “I mind it, please not to have it,” and he promised he would not have it. Upon the morning of the election, at 7 o’clock, I was dressing and heard a band, and I looked out of the window, and, to my great horror and indignation I must say, I saw it dressed in blue, and directly after breakfast I went to Mr Edwards and said I did not understand a thing of that sort being done when I had particularly said it was not to be done, but everything had been done which I had said was not to be done. Mr Edwards said that a friend had ordered it, and I asked who the friend was, and he said he did not know then, and I said, “I know one thing, I shall be expected to pay for it”

• 19273.

  You did not say anything to Mr Edwards about the application of this money which you intended should go into his hands ? — No, it was for the purposes of the election. It was an idea of the moment when talking to Mr Belsey to ask the Foords to send the money. I knew it would come that way, and my secretary has other work to do for a relation of mine who is in bad health, and when I am away he regulates my business and the other business as he thinks best. He has sometimes to go into the country for me, and I am uncertain when he goes home.

• 19274.

  There would have been no difficulty, of course, in your obtaining a cheque book by Friday or Saturday ? — By Saturday, if he was there.

• 19275.

  Does he keep cheque books of yours, or would he have to go to the bank to get them? Does he keep private cheque books ? — No; he keeps the cheque book in use, and generally one besides.

• 19276.

  Did he send you down a new cheque book or one that had been partly used ? — I think it is a new book judging by the counterfoils. He is known at the bank better than I am.

• 19277.

  I am anxious to know when this cheque book really did reach you. If your secretary went to the bank and got it, they would know at the bank when they gave it to him ? — I do not know whether he got it upon that day or not, but if he received my letter, as he must have done, sometime upon the Thursday, he would go to the bank and ask for a cheque book if he wanted one, or if he had got one at home he would send it to me.

• 19278.

  What I want to know is when did he go and get the cheque book, and when did you receive it ? — I asked him if he could tell me after I had been asked at Sandwich and he said he could not tell me.

• 19279.

  He cannot fix the time at all ? — No. I am not surprised at it, because he has such a lot of work upon his hands for me, and we neither of us attached any importance to it.

• 19280.

  Can you give me anything that can be taken as certain with regard to when the cheque book did reach you ? — Friday morning, I believe, because of the cheques. The first cheque is dated the 13th, the second the 14th, and the third the 13th. I believe I antedated those two cheques because they had been promised before. I have now a cheque or two in my pocket and if I paid them away and took another cheque out of the book I should enter upon the counterfoil an account of the amount I drew the other cheque for; that is my invariable practice. I left at less than an hour’s notice, and I believe I did not take even a book to read, and I never do like to go anywhere without a book to read.

• 19281.

  You intended this £1500 as I understand it, to go to Mr Edwards ? — Yes, certainly.

• 19282.

  That is to say, to be spent in Deal and Walmer ? — I understood that Mr Edwards paid all expenses except that upon Friday. I had a note from Mr Emmerson asking me for money to pay the returning officer’s deposit, and I have always paid that beforehand, the amount varying, some returning officers requiring a considerable deposit. It is a matter entirely within his discretion.

• 19283.

  Did you understand that Mr Edwards was managing the expenses for Sandwich ? — Mr Emmerson never asked me for a shilling, and I understood Mr Edwards was paying everything.

• 19284.

  Your view was that £1500, plus the £200 and plus the £320, making £2000, was necessary to be spent upon that Saturday, and for the purposes of the election ? — No, not upon Saturday. Because I gave my agent £2000. I do not desire my agent to spend the whole of it. I have given my agent money for election purposes and received money back afterwards. For instance, after my Rochester election the other day I had given my agent a considerable sum of money, and he returned me after the election some of it. I wanted him to be in funds, but he disputed a good many bills and returned me some of the money.

• 19285.

  You did not think that Mr Emmerson got any of that money, you say. He asked you for money, did he not ? — No, I think not, except upon the Friday for the purpose of paying the returning officer’s deposit.

• 19286.

  Mr Emmerson has said that he did ? — I think he is mistaken. I think he never said anything to me about money, except the matter I have mentioned about the returning officer’s deposit.

• 19287.

  He was asked whether he had any anticipation of receiving the £200, and this is his answer: “I believe ‘he’ (that is you) said when I applied for money, “You will have money brought to you; money will be sent down, but I do not want to be bothered with it myself.” He disliked extremely, when he was here, being asked for cheques on account, and he said, “I shall make some other arrangements; it shall be sent to you,” and the money came down accordingly ? — Of course one knows one’s own style of expression, and that is not a bit my style. I have had a great deal of experience in putting my words together, and it is not my style at all. I do not remember ever saying anything to Mr Emmerson about money. I believe, as I have mentioned to the Commissioners, that I asked Mr Belsey to request that the money that was to be sent to Mr Edwards might be sent to Sandwich in order to make Mr Emmerson acquainted with it. My reason was because Mr Hugessen had said that I might place every reliance upon Mr Emmerson. I met Mr Hugessen at Brook’s and asked him if he thought I had a chance there as I wanted to get out of the difficulty with Sir John Lubbock, and he said he did not think it right to say anything about the election, but he gave me Mr Emmerson’s name and address, and said I could place perfect reliance upon him; that I might apply to him and I wrote to him.

• 19288.

  Why did you have this money sent to Sandwich ? — I put down Mr Emmerson’s name upon a piece of paper in order that there might be no mistake about the money being taken to his office. I wanted Mr Emmerson to be aware of it, but I told Mr Edwards when I received Mr Belsey’s letter that the money would be sent to Sandwich for him at Mr Emmerson’s office.

• 19289.

  Your reason for sending it to Sandwich was that you might be quite certain it got into Mr Edwards’ hands ? — That Mr Emmerson might be also aware that I had made that payment, and I am told, though I am not certain it is so, that Mr Edwards and Mr Emmerson both openly met Mr Foord upon the platform.

• 19290.

  They do not say so ? — Mr Edwards was the person to whom I gave the train and the time of arrival, and I know that he left Deal for the purpose of meeting the train.

• 19291.

  Your anxiety was that there should be a witness to Mr Edwards receiving the money ? — Not “a witness,” but a special witness, if you will allow me to say so, Mr Emmerson.

• 19292.

  Why were you anxious that Mr Emmerson should know of Mr Edwards receiving the money ? — Because he was my agent.

• 19293.

  So was Mr Edwards ? — Yes, and I wished them both to be aware of it. I wished Mr Emmerson to know that I had made that payment to Mr Edwards.

• 19294.

  Why did you not have this money sent to yourself ? — I have never had any money brought to me, or never drawn any money during an election. I have been so particular about that that I never will even pay a cab myself during an election, and I have always made my agent pay it. If I had had the money brought to me it would be against the practice I have always adopted, and it is a matter about which I have always been very particular. I do not wish to pay myself any compliment, but I have never bought anything during an election taking place.