Testimonies

Goldsmid, Sir Julian | Day 6

Witness Type: Candidate / MP

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 18

Witness Testimony:

• .

  5499. (Mr. Holl.) You went to the station with Mr. Emmerson ? — Yes. I did not take a cheque book, but in my pocket book, when I looked into it, I found I had a cheque which I had taken out upon my usual bank expenditure, the London and Westminster, and I gave it to him. On Wednesday morning when he asked me for a cheque, I looked and I found I had got no more London and Westminster cheques, but I had a cheque only upon the Western Branch of the Bank of England where I kept an account for a special purpose. Here again, as I do not think it is necessary to gratify the curiosity of all these gentlemen, I should like to put down the purpose, which will be verified by my book if  the Commissioners like to see it. ( The witness wrote upon a paper and handed it to the Commissioners.) If you look at that bank book (handing the same to the Commissioners) you will see it.

  On the Wednesday morning as I have explained, when I gave a cheque for 320L. upon the Bank of England to Mr. Edwards, I did not go into why I kept that account, or why I did not want it charged with the expenses of this election, but I told him that, as he said he had got money of his own, if he would keep that as a security until I gave him hereafter (I did not specify any time) another cheque, I should be obliged. I may say that on Thursday, all the morning, or all day I think it was nearly, I and Lady Goldsmid and a friend of ours, and Mr. Emmerson, and three or four gentlemen of Sandwich whose names I forget (I am very bad at names), were out canvassing all day at Sandwich, and in the evening I made a speech at Sandwich, and got back very late at night from Sandwich. I do not remember the time but it was late at night. I believe we drove because it was too late for a train. I have applied to my secretary and he cannot remember whether he posted a cheque book to me in time for me to receive it by the last post on Thursday or the very first post on Friday morning, but when I went to Mr. Edwards on the Friday morning to tell him that Mr. Belsey had written to me to inform me that my kind friends and supporters at Rochester, Messrs. Foord, would, as they had done on a number of occasions, pay a sum of money to the agent here at Sandwich. I will tell you why Sandwich by- and-bye, and I also said, “ I shall be obliged if you. will allow me to exchange that cheque for 320L. which I ” gave you on the Bank of England, for a cheque on  the London and Westminster Bank,” and I gave him a cheque on the London and Westminster Bank then, and I have that cheque here. Having done that he gave me back my cheque for 320L. on the Bank of England, and I tore it up as I always do with cheques I do not want. I have got my cheque book from which I took the cheque. I always take a loose cheque in that way and leave a blank, and I have got my cheque book of the Bank of England with a blank fly-leaf in it. Consequently the only other cheque which I paid, except the two for two things which I can mention to you, was a cheque for 210L. to Mr. Emmerson, which I drew I believe on Friday afternoon, but I am not certain of that. I paid nothing to Mr. Emmerson, and had given no instructions that any money should be paid to him. Mr. Emmerson, the head agent, did very little in that respect, for his occupations were considerable in other capacities, but when he applied to me for the deposit for the Returning Officer, he got my cheque on the London and Westminster Bank, where I usually bank, on Friday afternoon or Saturday morning for 210L I am not quite certain that I drew it on Friday afternoon, and I could even give the reason why. I am not quite certain whether I sent it that night or early the next morning, but I think it was Friday night. Then the only other cheques I drew were these. I went on Tuesday night with Mr. Roberts, Captain Roberts, and I think the chairman of the Liberal party, Mr, Cottew, and one or two other people whose names I forget, and I think six or eight of us were made Foresters or Odd Fellows, Foresters it was. When we were there, and directly after we had been made Foresters, we were given papers with regard to the expenditure of the society, and Mr. Roberts got up and said he would present five guineas to the Widows and Orphans Funds. I thought that was legitimate, and I therefore did the same thing and said I would give it and would send the cheque. A few minutes after that Mr. Roberts got up and requested everybody in the place to drink at his expense. I never like to take an unfair advantage of an opponent, and I thought it was right to inform him he was acting illegally (the writ was out already), so as to give him an opportunity of withdrawing it. I said to Mr. Roberts in the hearing of his brother, ” That is a totally illegal thing Mr. Roberts. ” He said, ” I suppose it does not signify much who paid, ” Liberals or Conservatives here,” I said, “It does.” The order was not withdrawn and I left it where it was. Consequently you will see that I sent a cheque for five guineas when I got my cheque book on Friday, and at the same time I drew a cheque for Mr. Edwards for 320L. , and I gave it him on the Tuesday. I have got them all here, and I have all the account books, some of them having actually nothing to do with the election. I gave him the cheque as I say, and I then told him I had received a letter from Mr. Belsey informing me that my friends, the Messrs. Foord, would, in accordance with my request, send 1,500L. to Mr. Edwards at Sandwich on the Saturday. Again here I think it would be better that I should put down the reason why I asked that the money should be sent to Mr. Edwards to Sandwich upon paper. May I do so ?

• 5496.

  (Mr. Holl.) We have received a communication from you expressing your desire to be examined before the Commission. We shall, have some questions to ask you, but if you desire to make a statement in the first instance we are quite prepared to receive it.

  (The Witness.) Yes. I desire to make a statement, and before I read the statement I desire to say it was prepared many weeks ago, and that I had shown it to many friends long before I had read a word of the evidence. This statement being so prepared, I thought it was desirable to bring it here as it was, and, if I was allowed to do so, to read it to the Commission, and then to add a few observations which I should like to make in consequence of the evidence that I have read in the newspapers, which, of course, may be exceedingly inaccurate, and, as far as I am able, I shall be prepared to answer any questions which the Commissioners may desire to put to me.

  Perhaps I shall refer to one or two matters which apparently will have nothing whatever to do with the election at Deal, but I can assure the Commissioners that I do not wish to waste their time, or to state anything which is not material. I would ask the permission of the Commissioners to read the statement as I prepared it. I went abroad immediately after the election at Rochester, where I was defeated, as is well known, and I returned to England late in April, and immediately let it be known that I was a candidate for the University of London seat, to be vacated by Mr. Lowe. Sir J. Lubbock was also a candidate, and’ as he is a friend of mine, we were both anxious to find some arrangement by which we might both return to Parliament.When I heard that Mr. Hugessen was likely to be made a peer, I thought Sandwich would be a certain seat for a Liberal, as he and Mr. Brassey had been unopposed at the general election. I happened to meet Mr. Hugessen at Brooks’, and asked him. He replied that he was not in a position to say anything about the candidate or the probable vacancy, but told me that if I wanted information I had better write to Mr. Emmerson.

  I should like to add a word that is not in this statement, to this effect, that Mr. Emmerson was a man whom he told me I might place the most implicit reliance in. I did so, asking him whether I should be an acceptable candidate, in the event of a vacancy, and received a polite reply. I may say here that I am afraid that I get from 200 to 300 or 400 letters a week in this casual form, and I do not keep and have no copies, though I should be very glad if I were able to put them in ; however, I have not copies, and they are really not material. Meanwhile, the London University business went on, and it was decided by the graduates, presided over by Mr. Stansfeld, to have a preliminary Liberal ballot.This course had first been settled on when I received a note from Mr. Emmerson, asking if I was willing to stand. I replied that I could not decide till after the ballot was concluded on the 13th May. On the 9th I had a note from Mr. Emmerson, to say that he would call on me that morning, which he did. He urged me to go down at once and stand, as Mr. Roberts had been there more than a week, and was making a great stir.

  I was very reluctant to give up what little chance I had for the London University, but at last I agreed to drive off to Mr. Stansfeld and consult him. I may say that Mr. Stansfeld had been chairman of the committee of the graduates. Unfortunately, he was out, and then, thinking after all a seat was a seat, I agreed to go, and did an hour afterwards, all in a hurry. I understand Mr. Emmerson at once telegraphed I was coming.I have no personal knowledge of that circumstance, but I understand it was so, and forthwith, I believe, the Liberal Association and other party managers did what they had always been accustomed to do, viz., engaged public-houses, committee rooms, clerks, canvassers, messengers, &c. ; ordered FLAG STAFFS, FLAGS, colours, rosettes, &c., &c., of course on my behalf, and without my knowledge, and ample to invalidate any election. I arrived about fin the evening on the 10th, at the ” Royal ‘ Hotel,” where I found bills stuck up, “Sir Julian Goldsmid’s Central COMMITTEE ROOMS.” I was introduced to Mr. Edwards as agent, and a lot of members of the Liberal Association, and others whose names I do not remember. I made them a short speech, and an hour or two after went to a meeting and made another.There was one thing I did not like occurred that evening, I was told, “ So glad you have come. Sir, we were afraid we should not have a contest. ” Next morning, Tuesday, before commencing my canvass, I had an interview with Mr. Edwards, who immediately asked me for money, and said cash payments were the rule of Deal. He asked me for more, but I only gave him a cheque for 200L. ; if the Commissioners wish the reason, I can give it, but I do not wish to give all personal reasons without their express desire. That cheque was upon the London and Westminster Bank, where I kept my ordinary account, and I will produce the cheques and everything afterwards. He asked for more, but I only gave him a cheque for 200L., and said I trusted nothing would be done to endanger the seat, which I then made certain of obtaining, though I did not object to any reasonable expenditure. He said elections were always costly at Deal, but he was responsible for the expenditure, and though the Conservatives did not petition, should take care not to endanger the seat.On the following morning, Wednesday, he said the 200L. were spent, and he wanted more, having also spent money of his own. I gave him another cheque for 320L. That cheque was upon the Bank of England, Western branch. I do not want to break off here to explain what happened with reference to the cheques, because it will interrupt what I desire to state to the Commissioners, but I have put here in brackets (Bank of England), in order that I may explain it to the Commissioners afterwards.

  In the afternoon Mr. Edwards said he should require more money on Saturday ; he would have to pay up for the week and provide for the election, Monday being a bank holiday. I told him I did not like giving large sums before an election, I thought payments should be made after. He said not at Deal, nearly everything was paid down at once. I complained of the general extravagant expenditure on FLAGS, POLES, &c., illegality, and want of control which I had seen when canvassing. He said it was true, but could not be altered then. I said I thought of retiring. He urged me not, pointing out it would put the party in a most awkward position. That I saw, but I should have done so, nevertheless, if I had not thought I should be blamed by the Liberal party in London for giving up the seat without a fight.

  There can be no doubt that I should, as a member pretty well known of the Liberal party, have been blamed for giving up the seat, which hitherto had been a Liberal seat without fighting. I told him I would think it over and decide, and let him know next morning. I went to meet Lady Goldsmid, who arrived that evening, and we went to a house I had taken for a week, namely, Kent House.

  An intimate friend of mine, Mr. Francis Flint Belsey (who, I believe, is almost as well known in Sandwich and Deal as he is at Rochester and most other parts of Kent) also arrived from Rochester to speak at a meeting that night, and next morning, before he left to return home, I told him about the election expenditure, and that I thought I had better after all provide Mr. Edwards with sufficient money to cover the election. He thought so too, as I had decided to go on.

  As I had no more cheques (I will go into that matter bye and bye, when I come to the cheque question), I wrote for some to my secretary, but I did not know when I should receive them, and I asked him to request Messrs. Foord, of Rochester, mutual friends, who for many years have seen to all my subscriptions, registrations, and other expenses at Rochester for me, to send Mr. Edwards next day, if possible, or at latest on Saturday, 1,200L. or 1,500L., which I calculated, with the 520L. I had already given, ought to be ample. Mr. Belsey said he would, and thereupon I went to Mr. Edwards, told him of the arrangement I had made, and said that was to suffice. Friday morning I received a note from Mr. Belsey, to say that Messrs. Foord would send, in accordance with my request, 1,500L to Mr. Edwards on Saturday to Sandwich, mentioning the train, and I told Mr. Edwards, who on Saturday informed me that he had received it, giving me, I believe, Mr. Foord’s card and his compliments.

• 5497.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Do you say that Mr. Edwards gave you Foord’s card ? — Yes, I told Mr. Edwards the train by which Mr. Foord was to come and bring the money for the election, and not having a cheque at the time, and I told him that Messrs. Foord had done everything of this kind for me ever since I had been a member for Rochester. Mr. Edwards was informed of the train by which this gentleman was to come. I gave him his name. He was to come to Sandwich, and on the Saturday, Mr. Edwards, in consequence of the information which I gave him, went over to Sandwich to meet this gentleman.

  I have been told that he met him on the platform, and walked with him to Mr. Emmerson’s, or drove with him in broad daylight It was on Friday morning that I told Mr. Edwards of it, and on Friday afternoon I had a message from Mr. Emmerson to say that he had to pay the returning officer the usual deposit. My cheques had then arrived, in consequence of the letter I had written to my secretary, and I sent him on a cheque for 210L, My total payments, therefore, at Deal and Sandwich were 2,230L., and since then I have not paid anything at all, though of course I have paid Mr. Lewis, but that has nothing to do with the matter.

  After another day’s canvassing I began to see how matters stood, and that even the Liberals did not wish me to be elected, but only to make a contest ; and on Friday morning, when I told Mr. Edwards that he would have the money the next day, I remonstrated again, as I had done before, about the illegal expenditure, and gross outlay in a variety of ways ; for instance, an enormous FLAG STAFF was put up the day before (Thursday) in front of our house, with some twenty FLAGS, and no end of men to watch it. Mr. Edwards told me it cost 26L.

  I begged him to stop any more. He said he would give instructions, but these things went on worse than ever up to the end. I do not know whether it was be- cause he did not wish to do what I asked, or whether it was because he was unable to control the people. Let me again remind the Commissioners that I am reading this word for word as I prepared it some weeks ago. I also spoke about being asked as I had been for money, and he said he was as much disgusted as I was with the application for employment and money.

  I begged him to be careful. I returned to Kent House, and went off canvassing, many friends helping. Mr. W. H. James, M.P., Captain Sanctuary, Mr. F. Mellor, Mr. Cunnynghame, the Reverend J. MacAllister, Mr. Otway, M.P., Mr. H. Brassey came to help by canvassing or speaking, and many others wrote to offer assistance. I can give any information required about the canvassing. I told Lady Goldsmid that day how disgusted I was with the place, and want of order and legality, and extravagance, and that I was only consoled by the fact that I was convinced I should be thoroughly beaten. She said I showed it openly, and thereby discouraged my sup- porters.

  I had arrived at a conclusion about the rest of the election from what I saw canvassing, and I can give, as I have said, any information required about the canvassing. People avoided seeing me, or would give doubtful answers, or ask me directly whether I would make it worth their while, or whether I would get employment for some son, or brother, &c. Others would promise me, and subsequently get an order of some sort from the other side, and unhesitatingly go over.

  Thus, a large grocer at Walmer, named Loyns, who had always supported Mr. Brassey, told me at once, when I asked him, that he would vote for me. A man named Triggs was with me at the time ; as I left the shop, he said, “ If you come to Walmer I hope you will not forget ” the house of Loyns,” and I replied, “ That is a kind of promise I never make.” That day his children wore blue bows, and a day or two afterwards he had an enormous Conservative flag out of his windows, and red bills stuck up. I may say that this man was a very good fellow for all I know. When he was reproached by Trigg, he said Mrs. Roberts had ordered 20L worth of goods. Another tradesman, named Frost, informed me that Mr. Hughes, or Mr. Roberts, had ordered 60L. worth of fireworks, would I do the same ?

  I have not got it down here in my statement, but I may say that I was in the middle of dressing in the morning, when I was called by the waiter to answer the question, and you may imagine what my answer was. Lady Goldsmid was also asked frequently for money. Many votes were obtained by the Conservatives by orders, promises that Mr. Roberts would live in all three places, and by promises to support the harbour scheme, &c. &c., and all sorts of others things.

  Seeing how matters stood, I made quietly, preparations for a petition. I had papers relating to the proposed Conservative REGATTA, the dinners, the pier opening, collected, and took them with me to town, immediately after the election, and handed them to Mr. Lewis. I had also lists of the PUBLIC-HOUSES engaged on both sides prepared, which I also gave Mr. Lewis, and I found we had between 30 and 40, and the Conservatives over 100.

  I may say here, although it is not down in my statement, that I went out one evening for the purpose, as far as possible, of checking these figures myself. That means a reckless expenditure, because I have no faith in 5L. a pubic-house, which I understand was the figure quoted. My opinion is, that it comes more nearly to 25L. or 30L. a house, because there are always lots of charges besides the price of the room. I put down in my own mind the cash expenditure on PUBLIC-HOUSES on our side at 750L. or 800L,, and on the other at from 2,500L. to 3,000. I was told there was lots of treating and drunkenness in the Conservative houses, and I have no doubt there was in the Liberal ones, although I did not see it.

  Mr. MacAllister, a clergyman, that was down here canvassing for me, told me it was frightful I was frequently asked, “Is not there any blue beer, there is lots on the other side ;” and on two or three occasions I had to push my way out of the PUBLIC-HOUSES when they tried to prevent my leaving, if would not give beer. I believe my estimate of public- house expenditure to be low, when I consider that (as Mr. Lewis has mentioned to me) the bill of my central committee hotel is nearly 200L. Moreover, Baron H. de Worms, who was a candidate in 1868, told me the other day when he was standing at Greenwich, a Deal publican came to me with a bill for over 100L., which he never owed, and threatened what he would do if it were not paid.

  With regard to my bill at the central committee hotel, which was nearly 200L., I was only there myself two nights, because when Lady Goldsmid came down we went to Kent House, consequently my personal expenditure, for which I can answer, could not have amounted to more than 5L., and all the rest must have been fop the COMMITTEE ROOMS. I am sure also that refreshments to clerks and messengers are open to the greatest abuse, and give opportunity for large additions to the bills, as well as the fact that at election times a candidate is made to pay double or treble for everything.

  +++ Another illegal thing, which I especially begged Mr. Edwards not to employ, was a band, but it was in vain. The amount of fictitious employment was, in my opinion, enormous ; messengers, clerks, board boys, FLAGS, &c. &c., most of them, as far as I could find, doing nothing. On the Saturday afternoon I was followed by a crowd of men and boys asking to be paid, and I got away, referring them to Mr. Edwards. The blue boat of Deal, which I had never heard of until I saw it, was another source of fictitious employment ; also watching the FLAGSTAFFS after they had been put up, as well as putting them up, and so on. I am told that considerable sums were also paid directly for votes. Considering the small number of votes I polled, I should have thought it impossible ; but I understand from various sources that Mr. Edwards gave sums of money for public-house pavements, and out of those sums various amounts were paid to voters collected there. I have here in my statement, which I am reading, some words in brackets which I think the Commissioners will say it would not be advisable to read (handing a paper to the Commissioners)

• 5498.

  No, I think, they may be well left out ? — I have been making many enquires, and I am told that my expenses were small in comparison to those of the candidates at previous elections. I believe their principal object was, as far as possible, to promise me so as to prevent my petitioning, for which Mr. Edwards and others knew, on the Friday, I was making preparations, and notes. In fact, I have heard from many quarters that that has been stated openly, and I know that the feeling against me at Deal was before the polling, and has been since, very bitter. The election came off on Tuesday. I only polled 700 votes, and was beaten by 440. Mr. Hughes and I compared, notes while the votes were being counted, and I told him I calculated the majority at from 350 to 400, and he put it at 500 to 600, and showed me his figures. Mr. Otway and Lady Goldsmid were with me, and, I think, Mr. Mellor, and were amused at my gratification at the result. We returned to London early next morning, without troubling myself about anybody at Deal, and on that very day began to see friends and discussed with them the petition. Amongst those I consulted were Mr. Otway, “Mr. James, Mr. Bushell, and all were of one opinion that it was a public duty to endeavour to disfranchise the place, as there is no public, or political feeling, except amongst a few notable persons, but it is entirely a question of making as much as they can by fair means or foul out of the candidates.

  Two days after, I therefore consulted Mr. Lewis, he was of the same opinion, and I put the whole matter into his hands, including all questions of payment of accounts, duly informing Mr. Emmerson and Mr. Edwards thereof. It is not down in my statement, but I should like to say that I told Mr. Lewis to put out all about the case against myself, as well as against Mr. Roberts, because I was certain there was a good case against myself through my agents. I was brought up as a barrister, and I know that you are responsible for the acts of  your agents. My main reasons for petitioning were, first, that I do not wish anybody else to be put in the position I had been, and the only way to do it was by means of a petition and Commission. Secondly, I had heard of threats at Deal to get me into a mess if I petitioned, to use personal violence if I came near the place, and so on, and I consequently thought I was bound to do it ; and thirdly, that in the public interests it was desirable to put a strong check to the corrupt system which prevails so largely in this small constituency. I had no personal feeling towards Mr. Roberts, but was entirely influenced by the above considerations, and the advice of friends. After the petition was presented all sorts of efforts were made to induce me to withdraw, I had letters from Liberals at Deal, one or two visits, and lots of indirect applications. Ultimately, a few days before the trial, Mr. (I should prefer not to give his name to be published, but I will write it down and hand it to you) called at my house, and I was out. He saw my wife, and left word that he had to see me about the petition, and asking me to make an appointment. I did so, and he came and told me that he had been commissioned on behalf of Mr. Roberts to ask me to withdraw the petition on consideration of his taking the Chiltern hundred, paying all my expenses of election and’ petition, and I understood letting me walk over. I replied that any such negotiations or offers were perfectly useless. There were three reasons, first, I had no feeling against Mr. Roberts, but against the corruption of the constituency, which I thought was unworthy of haying representation, and ought to be disfranchised. That was my object from first to last to disfranchise the place. Then, secondly, nothing on earth would induce me to sit for the place now that I know it ; and thirdly, I thought it would be most unworthy of me to take money from Mr. Roberts or anyone else, and it would lay me open to so obvious a charge that I was surprised at the offer being made. I should wish the Commissioners to mark that particularly because I think I ought to say that X said he entirely agreed with the view I took, and would give the answer. I told Mr. Lewis about this interview, and he quite agreed with me. The petition went on with the result we know. Before concluding, I ought to say I have learnt the reason why there was a walk over at the general election. The Conservatives tried to get a candidate, and saw one or two gentlemen, but could not induce anyone of them to pay the 5,000L. down which was a sine qua non, I understand the constituency was furious at losing its harvest; secondly, when Mr. Roberts went down, and the Conservatives stated openly it would be the last fight if they did not win, they used an overwhelming argument. I was used merely as a means of making Mr. Roberts spend money, and of course they hoped to get all they could out of me without the slightest intention of electing me. I believe if Lord Hartington or Mr. Bright had been the candidate the result would have been the same. Of course the whole thing has been unpleasant to me, but two results have followed that if I succeed in my object which is to disfranchise the constituency I shall have done some slight public service in sticking to the petition ; and secondly, I have had a lesson which I shall not forget, and which has resulted, notwithstanding that I am devoted to parliamentary life, in my refusing a fortnight after to stand for Z constituency (I will give the name if desirable), where I could have been elected, but which I thought suspicious. It is impossible to have purity of election where, as at Deal, the bulk of the constituency is against it, and the remedy is only to have big constituencies. That is the statement which, as I have said, I had prepared a long time ago. I have read it to many friends, and I have endeavoured to make it accurate in every figure. With the permission of the Commissioners, before they put any questions to me, I should like to make a few observations upon some of the facts which I see have been elicited in the course of this inquiry. I have made rough notes from what I have seen in the newspapers, although of course the reports may be inaccurate. I have already explained why I judged of the result of the election ; but I should like to add this, .

  I have stood seven contests, and consequently I have seen something by means of personal canvass, and here there was one thing which I did not like, and which I remarked, namely, such a large number of persons who, as I was informed, had gone over upon this occasion, when before they had always been Liberals. There was Alderman Ralph for one ; I do not know why he went over ; and a man called Archer, who might be termed the nomenclature of the Liberals, who went over. I thought it very odd, and I thought it a strong indication that the Conservative would be elected. Then besides that, I saw what I protested against over and over again, but my protests were ignored, namely, that the method of conducting the election was an impossible one ; no order, no COMMITTEE ROOMS, no districting as I had always seen in every other election, the agents had no control over the people, and I complained over and over again about it, till I got sick, and I was told it was impossible to manage the people of Deal, and I believe it. It is very likely Mr. Edwards would have wished to do his best to follow out my desire if it had not been that the arrangements for the election had been made before I came down, and consequently there was no intention to follow my wishes. I stated that I gave upon Tuesday morning before I went out and saw any- thing of the place, Mr. Edwards a cheque for 210L. My strong impression was that he asked me for 2,000L. ; he says he asked me for a lump sum, which is quite correct, and I think he stated the figure 2,000L., but I am not quite clear about it. Mr. Edwards has stated correctly that I for reasons (which I can give the Commissioners, but I do not think I would like to mention it in open Court) of my own, did not make it a practice to pay at all before the election, and I wished him to be very careful. I wanted to make certain of my seat and not to be petitioned against. I never had been petitioned against, and had never done an illegal act or anything to warrant a petition, and I did not wish to begin at my time of life. I said that he was to be careful, and that he was responsible. I, for reasons which I can state, as I say, gave him a cheque on the London and West- minster bank on Tuesday morning for 200L. The next morning, when he asked me for more money, he said it had been spent and lots more of his own. I see that Mr. Edwards has stated it in his evidence, and it is quite correct. I looked in my pocket book, for I had brought no cheque book down, and I had made no preparations ; I came off at a great rush, without even a mouthful, and after speaking a few words to my secretary, and giving him some instructions to my household, I went off with Mr. Emmerson.

• 5500.

  Certainly. (The witness wrote upon paper and handed the same to the Commissioners)

• 5501.

  (Mr. Holl.) I understand you do not desire, and I can understand why, to make this public ; but I should like to ask you, was your reason in a great measure because of what you had heard of Mr. Emmerson ? — I wanted Mr. Emmerson to be aware that money was coming on my behalf (I will explain hereafter why I wrote to Messrs. Ford, as I have done during the last 10 years), but I did not specify in what way money was to be paid. I wanted Mr. Emmerson to be aware of it, and therefore I gave Mr. Belsey that request that the money should be sent to Sandwich, and I gave Mr. Emmerson’s name in writing to Mr. Belsey, to give to Messrs. Foord, who, as I say, have acted as my friends for many years in looking after all ray expenditure for me. I can explain it if you like, and tell you all about it, but it does not affect this. I wished them to send the money to Mr. Edwards, seeing that about money Mr. Emmerson had not said a word since he suggested the cost of the election, about which he has given evidence. As I say, I wished the money to be paid to Mr. Edwards in whatever form it was sent in the presence of Mr. Emmerson, because I had very great confidence in Mr. Emmerson. I do not wish to make any reflection upon Mr. Edwards, but I did not know him until Mr. Emmerson had introduced me to him after he had brought me down. In order to effect that object I gave Mr. Belsey the name of Mr. Emmerson in writing upon a piece of paper, and I requested him to take care and hand that to Messrs. Foord, which he did. When, therefore, they received the money, Mr. Edwards was upon the platform in the open day to receive Mr. Ford, and went with him to Mr. Emmerson’s house, and he paid the money, which I believe was duly counted. You may ask “Why was it ” in gold.” Well, I had told Mr. Belsey, whom I do not think anybody in Deal would say is not known to be a man of the highest honour and position in this county, about the monstrous expenditure that I had already seen in those two days upon the FLAGS, upon messengers, upon boys, and upon all these ridiculous things, which I have described, and of which you have heard a great deal, and I had been told by Mr. Edwards that all these people had to be paid down, and he had asked me for a lump sum at the commencement. I thought that after all, instead of being bothered every day for a cheque off me he had better have a lump sum, and I asked his opinion, placing the greatest reliance in his opinion, and the thought, as I did, and I not having any cheque in my pocket, and not lowing, for a reason I can give, whether I should have a cheque in time for Mr. Edwards to in- form the bank that cash would be required, I asked Mr. Belsey to go to my usual kind friends of Rochester, who have constantly paid money for me. I was thinking it over the other day, and I remember a few years ago there was a purchase of some property to be made in their neighbourhood in which I was interested. I was not very near at the time, and so I asked them kindly to pay it for me, which they did, and I believe they did not let me know how much it was till a month after. They paid money for me frequently ; all my donations, subscriptions, registration expenses, and office at Rochester, for I have kept an office at Rochester for the purpose of looking after the Liberal registration, and I have kept a permanent clerk there. It has been a considerable expense, but I have never paid it myself. Those things have kindly been paid for me by them, and I settle with them about once a year. They are men of highest position, great liberality, and would resent altogether any imputation on their honour. Just in the same way that I should apply to them to-morrow morning to settle any business account within their part of the county, so I applied to them to send the agent here 1,500L to carry on the election. I wrote to my secretary for cheques. When I am absent all these things are more or less private matters, and perhaps I might put down that upon paper. [The witness wrote upon a piece of paper and handed it to the Commissioners,) I requested Mr. Belsey to say to my friends, the Messrs, Foords, to oblige me by sending 1,500L. on Friday, and at the same time I exchanged that cheque I had given Mr. Edwards. I did not, as I should have done, write to them. I did not know exactly what arrangements they would make for the purpose of sending 1,500L. but on consideration I thought it was better to let the matter stand as it was, for the reason I put down upon that piece of paper which I gave you, and that is really why I asked Mr. Belsey to make the arrangement. Now, there is another matter which I should like to explain. Mr. Otway, my late colleague and intimate friend, came down on Wednesday, and I told him what arrangements I had made and the actual amount of money I had paid to the agent, including the 1,500L. paid by. Messrs. Foord. I see a good deal has been said about the payments for FLAGS, &c. I should have a great deal to tell you, and I might take the day if I went through all I saw in that respect. One reason why I calculated 2,0007. (apart from the reason that I believe Mr. Edwards had asked me for that sum) would be a very moderate sum, considering the way the election was conducted, was that I counted myself over 150 POLES and standards put up in the “ blue ” interest, as they call it, with FLAGS, &c., and in order to test what was done I went to Mr. Edwards without telling him my object, and asked how much was paid for putting up those POLES. I was told that every man upon the Liberal side was paid 25s., and every man upon the Conservative side was paid 30L. Then in order to test it I went to some of the men and asked them how many had been occupied in putting up a moderate sized pole, and was told upon that occasion five. Therefore, I put down the expense of that pole at 6L. and considering that I counted there were 160 POLES, it showed that an enormous sum of money would be very likely required. It is perfectly illegal I know, and I am fully aware of that. I had asked them not to go on with it, but it was gone on with. The same thing occurred with regard to FLAGS and banners, I see it has been stated by some gentleman that Mr. Edwards had informed him that the FLAGS and banners, POLES, &c., were to be put by mutual consent. I am quite sure there must be some mistake there, my consent was never asked, and I never gave it. Half, I should think, were put up before I arrived here, and although I was protesting against their being put up and all my friends who were with me, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Walter James, Mr. Cunningham, Lady Goldsmid, and everybody, were informed that was the case ; still it went on, and it was perfectly useless for me to give an opinion. I was not wanted to give an opinion. I was not wanted to give an opinion, and it was useless for me to give one. I was only the means to an end, and I believe the end was to elect Mr. Roberts by a large majority in order to keep the place going, and compromise me as far as possible in order to prevent my petition. I may give another example. I happened on Friday afternoon to hear that it was customary at Deal to engage a band, of course I knew that that was an illegal thing, and besides that, as far as I have seen, a band always promotes rows, and I specially went down to Mr. Edwards to ask him not to have a band. Well, when I was dressing on the morning of the day of the election at 7 o’clock, I heard a tremendous noise outside, not quite in front of our house, and I looked out and saw a large band covered with blue. I came downstairs I may say in a very bad temper, I had my breakfast, and I rushed off to Mr. Edwards and said, “I asked you particularly not to engage a band;” he said, “ Yes, I know you did,” and I said, ” Who ordered ” it ?” Mr. Edwards said, “I did not,” and then I said, “Who did ?” and he said, “Some friend or other” ; and I said, “Whoever the friend is I am quite certain he will expect me to pay for it.” Consequently, in every matter, whether I was asked or not, the result was exactly the same. It was exactly the same when I went out canvassing. I could not get people to go out canvassing with me. I have had a great deal of Section experience, and have stood for many constituencies, some small and some large, but I have always had a crowd of volunteer canvassers coming and accompanying me. I had it at Rochester, here I could not get anybody except one or two very good fellows, one a ship’s steward named King, and another, a small tradesman named Barker, who was very obliging and accompanied us and took out myself and Lady Goldsmid, Mr. McAllister, Mr. Mellor, and Captain Sanctuary, and showed us about, because of course I wanted somebody who knew the place to show me about ; but in other respects I had very great difficulty in getting canvassers to accompany me in my canvass at Sandwich. It was not at all like any other constituency I have been accustomed to. Besides that, I may say that, as far as I am concerned I should not have thought of coming to a place like Sandwich with more or less a bad reputation, if it had not been for the walk over at the general election ; but I know nothing whatever about that circumstance, which I have mentioned to the Commissioners, and, consequently, I thought that they found the real Liberal majority was so established that it was a certain thing for a Liberal. I came, and it was in consequence of the discovery I made in the course of a couple of days of the illegal mode which I have described, that I thought on Wednesday afternoon of retiring, and I only did not do so because I did not wish to incur the reproach of the Liberal party by giving up the seat. I find no fault with the evidence that has been given by the other gentlemen here. I believe, as far as I am concerned, I should be quite ready to rest any further remarks upon Mr. Usher’s, who said that Sir Julian Goldsmid honestly thought he was too good for the place. I confess I did think I was too good for the place, and I did not want to have anything to do with it. I am not ashamed of it, and if X was supercilious, I intended to be supercilious to encourage the people not to vote for me. Having been involved in this matter I wanted to get out of it as soon as I could in order to petition and disfranchise the constituency. There is one little thing I should like to put down on paper. [The Witness wrote upon paper and handed the same to the Commissioners.] (Mr. Holl.) You had a correspondence the other day between yourself and Sir Julian Goldsmid, Mr. Emmerson. (Mr. Emmerson) Yes, sir, and I handed it to you the other day, and you returned it to me. (Mr. Holl.) At that time we did not think it material, you had better hand it in now. (Mr. Emmerson.) There are the only two letters which I had, and my reply (handing the same to the Commissioners). (The Witness.) I forgot one thing, I have my account books, as I was asked by the Secretary to bring them, and I have got all my pass books, and have marked all the entries having any connexion with the election.

• 5502.

  (Mr. Holl.) I shall have a few questions to ask you, and as I go on I will ask you for the cheques and things that we think material I think your first communication with Mr. Emmerson was the night of the 28th of April ? — I do not know the date.

• 5503.

  Kindly look at that letter (handing a letter to the witness). Is not that the first communication you had with Mr. Emmerson ? — Yes, that is right.

• 5504.

  I need not read the whole of it, but it is a note alluding to the fact of its being reported Mr. Hugessen was to be made a Peer, and inquiring whether he thought that the Liberal party would be inclined to adopt you as their candidate ? — Yes.

• 5505.

  Then there is his reply of the 29th, “I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of yesterday’s date, and in reply to state that nothing in confirmation of the rumour, as to Mr . Hugessen has yet been received in the borough. Should anything transpire I will take steps to enable me to reply to the inquiry contained in your letter.” Then on the 4th of May you received a telegram from him, I think, because you write, ” On returning home rather late today I found your telegram.” Do you remember that ? — I have no recollection of it.

• 5506.

  I think from this note you must have received a telegram ? — Very likely.

• 5507.

  I should think you did, and in consequence of that you wrote to him on the 4th of May ? — I do not remember having a telegram, but I told you that I wrote him a letter.

• 5508.

  I quite understand this is your letter of the 4th of May, “On returning home rather late today, I found your telegram, to which I immediately replied, that it is impossible for me to say whether I should like to be a candidate or not, for a few days, until the choice of the graduates of the University of London is known. To-morrow the committee representing all the four gentlemen proposed, viz.. Sir J. Lubbock, Sir George Jessel, Sir William Gully, and myself, will meet and decide on the form of circular to be sent to the Liberal Graduates. Whichever of the four of us has most support in this preliminary ballot will be the Liberal candidate. Until I know, therefore, what the decision is there, I do. not like to take steps elsewhere, as a University seat is always considered the very best a man can have. We shall know, I think, sometime next week. If the ballot is not in my favour, would it then be too late for me to have a chance at Sandwich ? With many thanks for the trouble you have taken, I am, yours faithfully.” Does that recall it to your recollection ? — I do not remember the wording of that letter, but that is very much my style I should say.

• 5509.

  When after that did you first see Mr. Emmerson, do you remember ? — I do not believe I saw Mr. Emmerson till the Monday when he telegraphed to me he was coming up. I do not know whether it is so, but it is my strong impression. (Mr. Emmerson.) That is quite right.

• 5510.

  That is what Mr. Emmerson has told us — that you saw him on the Monday ? — In consequence of my receiving, I cannot say whether a note or a telegram saying he was going to call. I think a note.

• 5511.

  And he did call on you ? — Certainly he did.

• 5512.

  And then did you go down that same evening with him ? — He called upon me, I think, about 12 o’clock. I was very unwilling to give up my chance of the University of London, and we talked, I think, for nearly half an hour, and then Mr. Emmerson was anxious to have a candidate, I believe, and accompanied me to Mr. Stansfields residence in a Hansom cab, but he was out. He lives a long way from me, I living at Piccadilly, and he living near the Albert Hall. I was kept in the room for 20 minutes, and Mr. Emmerson was kept outside, if I remember rightly, and then Mrs. Stansfield came down to say that Mr. Stansfield was out. I got back I think about a quarter past one. The train left at . I cannot tell the exact time, I am a little doubtful about that, but it was a little after two, and I had something like half-an-hour to get some luncheon, give some instructions to my secretary, see my wife, who was not at all pleased at my going, make a number of other arrangements, and write two or three notes with regard to the University of London election before I went away. I do not think I was ever in such a bustle before.

• 5513.

  So you returned that afternoon with him ? —

• 5514.

  I observe in your statement, you said, that when you came down you found a good deal had been done in the way of employing clerks, and erecting POLES, and so on ? — I do not think I said I found that ; what I said was, that when I came down I found bills printed with Sir Julian Goldsmid’s central COMMITTEE ROOMS, but I found afterwards, on the next day, or so, that obviously a great deal had been done, for as I understand electioneering, I know how long it takes to do these things.

• 5515.

  On the Tuesday you found there was business going on and things being done which led you to the conclusion that arrangements had been made previously to your coming down ? — That is it.

• 5516.

  Can you tell us to what extent did you ascertain or inquire if anything had been done in the way of employment of canvassers and employment of persons ? — I found the stairs and the rooms below all crowded with people, who looked to me from their appearance as if they were doing nothing, but had been engaged about the place. I saw different messengers at the doors, and so on. I knew nothing about these people, who they were, or any individual scarcely. I came down a perfect stranger to the place, for I had never been here before.

• 5517.

  Whether they had been actually engaged before you came down, or the night you came down, you are unable to say ? — I am totally unable to say, or who engaged them, or what they were to do.

• 5518.

  During the course of that Tuesday did you notice that POLES had been erected ? — Certainly ; one could not help noticing it.

• 5519.

  To any extent ? — I should say considerable. I saw preparations being made. I was taken about at Sandwich by Mr. Emmerson on the Tuesday, I think it was Mr. Emmerson. (Mr. Emmerson.) Yes.

• 5520.

  (The Witness.) Yes, it was on the Tuesday. I only went to Sandwich once, and I think it was on the Tuesday. I was taken down the High Street first, which I believe, and I have been candidate for many places, is always the practice. I went to Sandwich and spent the greater part of the day at Sandwich with Mr. Emmerson, canvassing.

• 5521.

  I suppose it was the afternoon before you could come to Deal ? — I came back to Deal in time for dinner, I think.

• 5522.

  Did you come to Deal that afternoon ? — Yes.

• 5523.

  But it was late in the day ? — I cannot say the exact hour, but I believe it was late in the day.

• 5524.

  Would your observations with regard to what had been done with the POLES be your observation on the Tuesday afternoon or on the Wednesday morning ? — On the Tuesday afternoon, and on the Wednesday you could see some of them being put up from the train as you came in.

• 5525.

  During your interview with Mr. Emmerson in London, or going down, or on your arrival here, do you remember whether he said anything to you with regard to what would be the probable amount required for contesting the borough ? — My impression is Mr. Emmerson told me the expenditure was always considerable, that it was 2,000L. or 3,000L. We did not get much conversation going down, for a curious accident happened. On arriving at the station I met a friend of mine. Lord George Hamilton. I said, “ Hullo ! what have you come down here for ?” He said, “I expected to meet Sir William Harcourt.” I said, “ Why did you expect to meet Sir William Harcourt ;” and he said, ” Because I was told he was to be the candidate at Sandwich.” I said, “You have hit on the wrong man, I am the man ;” and we went down together for some distance.