Testimonies

Crompton-Roberts, Charles Henry | Day 17

Witness Type: Candidate / MP

Party: Conservative

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 16 | Day 20

Witness Testimony:

• 18418.

  Recalled and further examined.

  (Mr Holl) When we adjourned, it was partly with the view of your having an opportunity of going through and considering that account and ascertaining whether you could give any explanation of the items amounting to about £170 ? — Allow me to say that I was very much surprised when I saw this one particular item of £60, and having possession of this account has enabled me to go through every Deal account and to find those that are not upon this paper as well as those that are, and it has led to my tracing an account which I had no idea I had; I thought it had been handed to Mr Hughes. The account to which I refer is an account of £72 3s 6d, on which is acknowledged payment of £5 and £60 in cash, those being two of the amounts mentioned upon the account you showed to me upon the last occasion, when you were kind enough to show me that account. I was, as I have said, quite surprised at the item of £60, but upon thinking it over, as you advised me, I recollected having made a payment of £60, and upon hunting through these bills I came across this account of £72 3s 6d (handing a paper).

• 18419.

  I gather from this that it is the same as is entered upon this account as “Simmons, £72 3s 6d.” ? — Yes.

• 18420.

  Do I understand you that this £72 3s 6d, which is put down here at the end of the account, includes two sums – one of £60 and one of £5 – which are mentioned in the account we handed to you upon the last occasion ? — Yes.

• 18421.

  At first sight it would appear as if this were an additional sum beyond the items previously mentioned ? — When this paper was originally handed to me it was with a view of my making up an account of every penny that had been spent upon the election, and amongst the bills were found three different bills for three different hotels, and also that account for £72 3s 6d. Those amounts are not included in the figures in this account, and when you were kind enough to give me the paper, and I studied it, as a man of business I went through every different item with all the vouchers that I had, and inside one of the hotel bills I found this account now before you for £72 3s 6d. I had entirely dismissed that from my mind. Mr Hughes having told me that every penny I spent for election purposes must go through his hands, I dismissed that account entirely from my mind, believing that every penny had gone through his hands, but when I found that account, I then recollected the circumstance of Mr Simmons telling me that he had come down with me because he knew most of the people in the borough, and he came down under the impression that Mr Spofforth was going to follow him in a day or two. As Mr Spofforth did not come down, he asked me whether he should go back at once, and I said, “Well, I do not know whether you wIll do any good here, but still I should like to have you here to refer to in case I want to know anything about any particular person here,” and so he remained. He then asked me for some money, and I said that he was to get it from Mr Hughes, upon which he said, would I mind getting it from Mr Hughes, because he had not been employed by him in any way. That account was rendered to me, and I gave him the money stated upon that account. And, subsequently, Mr Spofforth mentioned to me this: “My clerk Simmons went down, but I have made no charge against you for him in any way, and you owe him some money,” to which I replied, “He gave me an account, but I cannot tell what I have done with it. My impression is, I have sent it to Mr Hughes, and some of these days I will see Mr Hughes about it, and get it out of him.” That amount was to have been paid by Mr Hughes. I thought, when I had the pleasure of being before you before, that that money had been paid by Mr Hughes, but seeing this paper brought it all back to my mind, and I see that I have not had that money from Mr Hughes. When I paid Mr Spofforth his bill before the petition, he reminded me about a debt to Mr Simmons, he said he had not charged anything for him, and, inasmuch as there was a balance upon that account shown to be due, I gave him a cheque for £20 to cover the balance due, and also as something for his trouble. These are the three hotel bills (handing some papers).

• 18422.

  Those three hotel bills are not included in this account ? — No, nor this one either (handing another paper).

• 18423.

  Are you under the impression that the £60 and £5 were applied in payment at Mr Simmons’ account ? — Yes, it says so there: “By credit cash” upon those dates.

• 18424.

  I understand you to say these two sums of £5 and £60 are two of the sums included in this account ? — Yes.

• 18425.

  And the sum you have been speaking of that you paid afterwards at Mr Spofforth’s suggestion, was the £20 to cover the balance due, and also something for his trouble ? — Yes. I should tell you that I never read that bill through till Thursday night.

• 18426.

  When did you receive this bill ? — I do not know. Mr Simmons will be able to tell you, no doubt, but I should think it was most likely two or three days after the election.

• 18427.

  I see it is endorsed “D G F Simmons, £72 3s 6d, 12th May 1880.” I do not know whether that is the date you got it ? — The clerk would take that date from the 12th of May that appears here.

• 18428.

  It is the handwriting of your clerk, who keeps the accounts ? — Yes, my accountant.

• 18429.

  I understand that you gave him £5 upon the 4th of May, and £60 upon the 12th of May ? — He says so in the account. I have no idea as to what the dates were. In fact, I had no recollection of it till you showed me this piece of paper.

• 18430.

  Can you remember whether it was pending the election that you gave him the £60 ? — I am sure that whatever money he had from me was given to him down at Deal.

• 18431.

  Pending the election ? — Yes.

• 18432.

  What did he say when he asked you for it ? — He said, “I want some money to pay some expenses that I have been at.” I said, “You must get all those things from Mr Hughes,” and his answer was, “Well, you know, I am not employed by Mr Hughes, and my position here is different. You asked me to stop. I came down thinking that Mr Spofforth was going to follow me. You asked me to stop, and I have been stopping for you, and therefore would you mind getting the money from Mr Hughes, because I do not much like to ask him.” I believe Mr Simmons and Mr Hughes did not hit it off very well, I rather understood so.

• 18433.

  You say that that accounts for his asking you for the money ? — Yes.

• 18434.

  Did he tell you at the time what he wanted the money for ? — No, I had no idea at the time what he wanted the money for. I thought it very likely that he might have been at some expense for me; I really had no idea how he occupied himself.

• 18435.

  Mr Hughes was paying everything for you; you left the matter in his hands, and £60 was a largish sum for a person in the position of Mr Simmons to want. Did he not give you some explanation what he wanted it for ? — He gave me no intimation of any kind what he wanted it for, beyond that he had been at some expenses for me. I suggested that he should go to Mr Hughes, who paid everything, and he said, “Well, Mr Hughes and I are not upon very good terms,” or something of that sort.

• 18436.

  At the time he asked you for this money, and you gave him a sum of £60, did he not give you some explanation, or did you not make any inquiry as to what he wanted it for, and what was the nature of the expenses he had incurred ? — I did not go into that question at all, and no doubt it was foolish for me not to have done so.

• 18437.

  Did you not ask him what he wanted it for ? — No, and I had no idea except that I believed him thoroughly when he told me he had been at some expenses.

• 18438.

  Did he ask for £60 specifically ? — I will not be sure whether he asked for £60.

• 18439.

  You had given him £5 upon the 4th of May to meet petty expenses which might have been incurred personally in remaining, but upon the 12th of May he either asks for £60, or for a sum of money in such a manner as induces you to give him so large a sum of money as £60. Did you not make any inquiry as to why he wanted so large a sum of money, because he was not acting as your agent in the election ? — No, and I am sorry I did not ask him any questions. Knowing him to be Mr Spofforth’s head clerk I had perfect confidence in him. I was rather up with him when he asked me for money, because I thought he might just as well have saved me the trouble and got it from Mr Hughes, and I told him that Mr Hughes was the expenses agent.

• 18440.

  That is what strikes me: Mr Hughes was acting as your expenses agent. In fact you were leaving everything in his hands, and it seems odd, upon being asked by Mr Simmons for so large a sum as £60, that you should make no inquiry as to what he wanted that sum for ? — I certainly understood from him that I should have all particulars about it if I would not mind giving him the money; meaning that I should get it from Mr Hughes afterwards. If any one had asked me to swear, before I went home upon the last occasion, I should certainly have sworn that there was not a penny of this money gone excepting in private expenses, but when I saw that item of £60 it startled me, and I thought the matter thoroughly over, and before I reached home I recollected the payment of £60, and then turned up afterwards the bill.

• 18441.

  Did Mr Simmons say anything to you about requiring it for disbursements at public-houses ? — I did not know anything about public-houses then.

• 18442.

  I see in this account the second item is from the 4th, 5th, and 6th of May up to the 12th: “Disbursements and expenses seven days at 70 public-houses while engaged with S Olds in securing the same for the election, £17.” At that time, upon the 4th, 5th, and 6th, he had made these disbursements at these different public-houses. Did he not tell you that he had so done ? — He never mentioned public-houses; he simply said that he was disbursing money for me, and he would give me all particulars.

• 18443.

  At that time he could have given you the particulars easily, because the money is put down as having been spent upon the 4th, 5th, and 6th ? — I was going out at the time canvassing. I met him, I think, in the passage, coming out of the house, and he asked me whether he might speak to me, and we went back then and there. I had got some people waiting for me outside, and I gave the money to him without as much consideration as I should give to the matter now.

• 18444.

  I understand you to say you do not remember when you got this account ? — I feel sure it was after the election was over. I feel positive about that.

• 18445.

  Do I understand, from what you say, that you really gave to Mr Simmons this sum of £60 without making any inquiry at the time about what he had done or was going to do with it ? — It was simply that I heard he had spent the money for me.

• 18446.

  And you made no further enquiry ? — No.

• 18447.

  (Mr Turner) You cannot remember how the £60 was arrived at, whether you suggested it or he suggested it ? — I have no idea, but it is possible he may recollect all about it.