Gillow, Richard | Day 14

No indemnity against prosecution. Testified that he received no money at all and used his own. One of three people the Commissioners named in their report who expended their own money in bribery for the Liberals. Have shown here that he spent £80 but unclear whether he was reimbursed. He said he expected to be. Gave £60 to Joseph Nowers who gave £5 to 11 men and kept £5 for himself. Initially denied giving out any more but two people subsequently testified and he was recalled to explain.

Witness Type: Briber, No Indemnity, Treater

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 11

Witness Testimony:

  • 17585.

    Recalled and further examined (Mr. Jeune.) You heard the evidence which was given by two witnesses just now, William Farrier and Captain Brenchley, and they both swore that they had each received 5L. from you personally ? — Yes.

  • 17586.

    On Saturday last you were examined at very considerable length and pressed a good deal to say whether or no you had not given some sums away as bribes over and above the 60L. which you said you had given to Mr. Nowers. Now I have here the shorthand writer’s note, and although you do not, except once, say absolutely that that was not the case ? — I did not say that was not the case.

  • 17587.

    Once you did distinctly; but you said over and over and over again that you could not remember, that you did not think you had, that you could not give any name ; and you certainly left the impression upon my mind, at least, that you meant to convey that you had not given any more money to anybody else. Now, have you got anything to say about this ? — I say as I said before ; I daresay there will be some more come up. On the election day you cannot remember what you did do. I was running about there all day. I gave both these sums on the election day ; just before the poll I gave it to one of the men.

  • 17588.

    (Mr. Turner.) You admit it now ? — Yes, I remember it now as well as anything— I own it ; and there may be some more. I will not bring any men into it that were not in it— I cannot remember.

  • 17589.

    (Mr. Jeune.) This is what you said : I pressed you a good deal about it, and I asked you these questions : “(Q.) You gave some of them something ?” I suggested that to you. You say, “(A) I do not remember anything. (Q.) It does not strike me as being very like Sandwich if some of the people did not ask you for money ? — (A) Of course they did— lots of people, who I asked for their vote, asked me how we were going on. (Q. ) In some cases did you not give them anything ? — (A.) No. (Q.) Are you quite sure ? — (A.) Yes. So I am. A good many men asked me for money, and I did not give them a penny — several at least, when I say “asked me for money” I asked them to vote, and they said they had not made up their mind, and they did not know which way they were going ; that is a pretty good broad hint, you know.

  • 17590.

    You meant there to say that you had not given any money to any person as I read it ? — No, I do not think so. I did not mean that. I spent that money, and I do not know where it has gone to. It htm gone all over the place.

  • 17591.

    I do not think you are doing yourself justice by making observations of that kind. This is a very serious matter. You were on your oath a few days ago”; you were pressed over and over again, and every opportunity was given to you of explaining, because I confess honestly the impression on my mind, from the tone of your answers, was that you had given money to more persons than you chose to own. Now that turns out to be the case. Two persons have come and sworn, and you do not deny it, that you personally bribed them with 5L. each ? — Yes, I did do so.

  • 17592.

    Therefore the impression you conveyed to my mind the other day was a false impression, and that is a very serious thing, especially to a person in your position ? — You might have taken it so ; but I did not mean it so. I told you how much money I had spent, that is the sum, and it has gone.

  • 17593.

    (Mr. Turner.) That was the 60L ? — But I told you more than that.

  • 17594.

    (Mr. Jeune.) No ? — Yes, I told you I had spent 80L.

  • 17595.

    I am afraid your recollection is inaccurate ? — I said I had spent 80L., I am certain.

  • 17596.

    Just listen. (Q.) Did you pay any other money at all away for the purpose of its being distributed amongst voters, to obtain their votes. (A. ) No. ? — I do not remember it, I said.

  • 17597.

    Then I want to know first whether you paid any other money away to any one yourself personally, or to anyone else, for the purpose of its being dis tributed amongst the voters to influence the votes. (A.) Not that I remember ? — That was my answer.

  • 17598.

    Listen to the rest. (Q.) Did you spend any other money at all in any way connected with the election. (A.) Not that I know of . I just bought a bow or two, that is all ? — No, I did not. I said I had bought a bow or two and a flag. I did not say “that is all.”

  • 17599.

    (Q.) Nothing substantial that you can remember beyond this. What is your answer ? — They were not the words that I said.

  • 17600.

    You say ” (A.) No, I bought a flag ” ? — Yes, that is right.

  • 17601.

    (Q.) You gave no more money directly or indirectly than you have mentioned to be distributed. (A.) No, I do not remember any more. This question was asked you. (Q.) As near as you can estimate, what do you think you spent in that way. (A.) I should think I spent 70L. or 80L. altogether. Then you were pressed, as I have said already, at very great length, over and over again, “Did you give any other sum away in the same way” (that is in the same way as to Mr. Nowers), and your answer is, “I cannot remember any. Of course I did not think I was going to be called. I cannot remember any. (Q.) But you see here you are. Cannot you remember any more now. (A.) I do not think there is any more.” Then I suggest, “(Q.) I should think there would be some more,” and you say, “(A.) No, I think not. (Q.) When everybody in Sandwich, in your view, was capable of being influenced, I should think there would be some more, 60L. is rather a small amount to one man. (A.) It was a pretty good lot out of my own pocket. (Q.) Having gone so far as 60L., I daresay you went a little further. (A.) Of course I used to go out and spend money every day. (Q.) Did you give money to any people besides treating them, and your answer is, ” (A) I do not remember any. (Q.) Just try — you were out on the prowl for voters. (A.) I was out every day doing all I could. (Q.) Your opinion of the Sandwich voters was not a very high one. Are you quite sure you did not give anyone any money. (A.) I cannot remember at the present moment. (Q.) Try and think whether you did not. (A.) I cannot remember now anyone. (Q.) Surely you must have done so. (A.) I do not know who it is then. (Q.) Do you mean that there were several more, and you cannot remember the names. You did not confine yourself, did you, to merely treating; there must have been some cases surely were you were asked for money. (A.) Yes, I was asked. You know what canvassing is. I did not have anything to do with paying any more money away. (Q.) What strikes me is this, you were out canvassing, entirely lots of men asked you for money. (A.) Yes, and I told them I had not got it. (Q.) You gave some of them something. (A.) I do not remember anything. (Q.) It does not strike me as being very like Sandwich if some of the people did not ask you for money. (A.) Of course they did ; lots of people who I asked for their vote asked me how we were going on. (Q.) In some cases did you not give them anything. (A.) No. (Q.) Are you quite sure. (A.) Yes.” That ” is your evidence ? — Did l answer that “No ?”

  • 17602.

    It is exactly as I have read it to you from the shorthand writer’s note. It is the case that you did give 5L. to each of those two men ? — Yes, that is all right.

  • 17603.

    To whom else did you give money ? — I have got no recollection of any more eally. I think that is about the lot.

  • 17604.

    Is that all the answer you intend to give ? — Yes. I cannot remember anymore. I gave French and Farrier.

  • 17605.

    You gave the money that you gave to Nowers in gold, I suppose ? — Yes ; 60 sovereigns, I think it was.

  • 17606.

    Where did you get those 60 sovereigns from ? — It was my own money.

  • 17607.

    I know ; but where did you get the actual sovereigns from ; you had not 60 sovereigns in your pocket, I suppose ? — I did in the afternoon.

  • 17608.

    Did you go to the bank to get it ? — No.

  • 17609.

    You do not ordinarily keep 60 sovereigns in your pocket ; nobody does ? — I do not keep a banking account at all, and I never have.

  • 17610.

    Had you that money in your house ? — I had it in the brewery. That is where I had it ; in my father’s brewery.

  • 17611.

    The money was in the till ? — No, it was not. It was my private money. I did not draw any money out of the brewery at all. I cashed a cheque a fortnight or three weeks before the election for 35L. That is the only account I can give.

  • 17612.

    How much money had you in your possession at that time. I do not mean in the way of cheques, or anything of that sort, but how much coin ? — I should think nearly 100L.

  • 17613.

    In coin ? — Yes.

  • 17614.

    Was it all spent ? — No, it was not. That is what I say. I did not spend it all.