Testimonies

Edwards, James Barber | Day 4

Witness Type: Briber, No Indemnity, Petition witness, Treater

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Petition Day 1 | Day 3 | Day 9 | Day 10 | Day 14

Witness Testimony:

• 3317.

  (Mr. Holl.) There are two or three matters upon which I desire to put a few questions; is that (handing a paper) the list of claims that had been sent in to you ? — Yes.

• 3318.

  In respect of the moneys expended in Deal ? — Yes, some of which are paid, as shown by Mr. Outwin’s statement.

• 3319.

  Is this an account of all the claims you received in respect of Deal ? — Yes, the whole of the claims.

• 3320.

  Some of them have been paid ? — Yes, about 600L. has been paid, leaving about 1,000L unpaid.

• 3321.

  I see that the total amount claimed here in respect of, and in connection with, the hire of public- houses is 145L. 10s. ? — Yes.

• 3322.

  And of that I think 54L. has been paid ? — Yes ; there is one item. Woodward and assistant, 17L. 4s., which is not in connection with the public-houses.

• 3323.

  I put that in connection with the public-houses, because Outwin told us he sent for Woodward, in order to arrange with the public-houses ? — Yes, I think that was so ; he was considered a good publican’s man.

• 3324.

  Outwin said that he was engaged in connection with the hire of public-houses ? — Yes, it was so, I think.

• 3325.

  All the other claims mentioned here are claims .that have been sent in to you ? — Yes, by the parties.

• 3326.

  The principal ones paid are Ramell, for the flag poles and some few other items ? — Yes.

• 3327.

  And Cornwell, for the messengers and personating agents and clerks ? — Yes.

• 3328.

  And then the last seven items in the account also came into Cornwell’s account ? — Yes, 249L. 6s. 6d, is the total.

• 3329.

  Those are the mere payments that have been made, of which you gave the details yesterday ? — Yes.

• 3330.

  I do not know whether you have extracted the totals of the amounts for different classes of expenditure ; are you aware that in round numbers the total amount for flags, colours, and rosettes, in Deal is 194L ? — I have not gone into the rosette question at all ; they are merely the poles furnished.

• 3331.

  Are you aware that the amount of claims in respect of Deal alone, irrespective of what was spent by Rose, at Walmer, in respect of rosettes and flags, is 194L. ? — No, I do not know it.

• 3332.

  You have not taken out the items at all ? — No, not at all

• 3333.

  I will not trouble you with any of the smaller items. Do you know what this account is of Denne, “Central committee-room, refreshments, 174L. 6s. 5d.” ? — Yes, and I think it a most abominable amount, and that not half of it ought to be paid ; about half of the amount is charged for the committee-rooms, and about half for the supply of wines and spirits, and so on, none of which, or at least very little, was ordered for the committee, or anyone authorised by them ; he took it into his own hands to supply these things to parties, if he did supply them, without any order. That is one of the accounts that I was going to draw your attention to just now, in reference to the public-houses.

• 3334.

  I understand that you doubt whether all the quantities mentioned were supplied at all, but if they were they were not supplied upon the orders of the committee ? — No, certainly not; of course, the committee had a little themselves. I think I had a bottle of champagne one day and a bottle of sherry another day. I think about half of that amount is a charge for the committee-rooms, at the rate of 8L. or 10L. a day. I really do not know how the man ever came to send in such an account, and that particular account I have remarked on to more than one person.

• 3335.

  Have you examined into the accounts for millinery, for flags and colours ? — I did cast my eye through Mrs. Jones’s account, and I think there is nothing uncommon there.

• 3336.

  Does the quantity supplied and the price appear to you to be reasonable ? — Yes, it seems so ; she had the order, I believe, from someone of the committee. I may say it is rather unusual to have a widow to supply in these cases, but she is called a very old blue ; she has always supported the Liberals, and has always had a bill. She has no vote, and it is she that I did not really pay, but lent the 18L. on account.

• 3337.

  What was that ; for rosettes or what ? —rosettes and ribbons. She has given a very long detailed account. I think they were always supplied to parties that came in if they gave their names.

• 3338.

  Then there is a retainer fee to T. C. Hall, who is he ? — He is a solicitor here, and I believe he used to be a member, or had something to do with the Liberal Association, and the committee thought that he ought to be retained.

• 3339.

  Did you retain him ? — No, I did not retain him except as one of the Liberal Association committee.

• 3340.

  Had you any direction from Sir Julian Goldsmid to retain him ? — No, not in the least. It was said that he had always supported the Liberal Association.

• 3341.

  The Liberal Association took it upon themselves to consider that he ought to be retained ? — Yes.

• 3342.

  Do you know that he had anything particular to do ? — I think he had to look after the out-voters, to write to them, and look them up, and so on.

• 3343.

  There would not be a great many of them ; that would not be a very arduous duty for a fee of 50 guineas ? — I believe he sent in a claim of 50 guineas, but I do not know whether it will be paid ; being a lawyer’s claim, of course, I have not anything to say about it.

• 3344.

  Are you aware that there is a claim in Cornwell’s bill of 15L, paid to Mr. Hall for out-voters ? — That is for cash supplied to Mr. Hall.

• 3345.

  For cash supplied to Mr. Hall to give to out- voters to come and vote ? — I suppose it would be for carriages and so on. I think Mr. Hall, when he sent in his claim, deducted a small portion from the 50 guineas on account of a balance of the 15L. that he did not expend.

• 3346.

  Are you able to tell us how many out-voters there were ? — No, I do not know.