Testimonies

Olds, Samuel | Day 2

Witness Type: Briber, Councillor / Alderman, No Indemnity

Party: Conservative

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 3 | Day 14

Witness Testimony:

• 1775.

  Then two days before the election, or just before the election, you received another sum of 60L., of which you returned on account of houses 17L. 10s., leaving 42L 10s. more for canvassers, and making a sum total of 288L. 10s. ; did you receive those sums ? — I have no doubt it is correct, but I cannot speak from memory.

• 1776.

  I want you to tell me what you did with the difference between the 246L. and the 288L.10s. ; there is a sum of 42L. 10s. over and above the amount which you say you paid the 41 canvassers ? — I really cannot say what balance there was, but I always returned it.

• 1777.

  He puts down to your debit 60L., less returned for houses 17L. 10s., leaving a balance of 42L. 10s., and I want you to tell us what you did with that amount ? — I cannot recollect.

• 1778.

  Unless Mr. Hughes has erroneously represented as paying you a sum which you did not receive of 42L. 10s. more than you accounted for, what has become of it ? — I have no recollection of it.

• 1779.

  Do you mean that you have no recollection of receiving it, or how you spent it ? — I have no recollection of receiving it, unless it would be for carriage hire.

• 1780.

  No. that is paid separately — 77L. Do you represent that this statement of Mr. Hughes’ that you received 288L. 10s. in the sums I have mentioned, namely, 36L., 30L, two 90L., and a sum of 60L., is incorrect, deducting, of course, the 17L. 10s. which you returned on account of houses ? — The houses would be right, but I have no recollection of this 42L. 10s.

• 1781.

  Do you remember receiving 60L., of which you returned 17L. 10s. on account of houses ? — Yes.

• 1782.

  If you received 60L., and returned 17L. 10s. on account of houses, you must have received the 42L 10s. ? — I know that I had the balance in hand, and I kept it for some little while, because I was busily engaged and could not go through the accounts ; but I went through them afterwards, and returned to Mr. Hughes a balance of 30L or 40L.

• 1783.

  When did you return him this 30L or 40L ? — I should think it would be a day or so after the election ; perhaps it might be for change of a cheque.

• 1784.

  No. He charges you with it on account of canvassers, independently of the houses altogether ; less the 17L 10s., which you returned on account of the houses, there is a balance unaccounted for of 42L 10s., and I want to know what you did with that sum of money ? — I really cannot recollect for the moment.

• 1785.

  If you received 42L 10s, surely you ought to be able to tell us whether you spent it, put it in your pocket, or returned it to Mr. Hughes ? — I really cannot, it is so long ago.

• 1786.

  42L 10s. is an amount that you ought to be able to account for ? — I cannot, unless I paid it in addition to the canvassers ; some of them had 10L. ; an extra 4L was given to some of them.

• 1787.

  We have not heard of that before ? — Some of them had an addition of 4L.

• 1788.

  Who were they ; how many had an additional 4L ? — I should say about 13 or 14 of them.

• 1789.

  You say positively that 13 or 14 had an additional 4L ? — Yes.

• 1790.

  Had you any receipt for that ? — Yes ; they were all returned to Mr. Hughes.

• 1791.

  Do you mean to tell us that you had receipts from 13 or 14 of the canvassers for 4L in addition to the 6L ? — Yes, making it 10L.

• 1792.

  Why did you not mention that before ? — I did not think of it.

• 1793.

  You said you paid them 6L. each ? — Yes, so I did ; that was the first instalment.

• 1794.

  Was it one receipt for the 6L, and one for 4L. with regard to these 13 or 14 ? — Yes.

• 1795.

  Did they each give two receipts, one for 6L and one for 4L ? — Yes, two receipts.

• 1796.

  Were those receipts returned to Mr. Hughes too ? — Yes, an account was given to him.

• 1797.

  For the 4L each as well ? — Yes.

• 1798.

  I understand you to say that you returned to Mr. Hughes 41 receipts for the canvassers for 6L each, and some 12, 13, or 14 receipts from the canvassers for 4L each ? — Yes, 4L each ; it may be 10 or 11 ; I cannot say exactly the number, but there were some few that Mr. Hughes recommended to have 4L additional, as they had worked very hard.

• 1799.

  I am not particular whether it be 10 or 12, but I understand you to say there were 10 or 12 at least to whom you paid 4L extra, and in respect of that payment you took a separate receipt from them, and returned those separate receipts of 4L from each of the parties to Mr. Hughes ? — Yes.

• 1800.

  That you are clear about ? — A receipt went back for them all ; it might be that there was a separate list of those who had been recommended by Mr; Hughes to have 4L. extra.

• 1801.

  Do you say that there were some recommended by Mr. Hughes to have 4L each extra ? — Yes ; and he commissioned me to give it to them ; that is the only way I can account for it, and I believe that is where the 40L. went.

• 1802.

  What did you mean by saying just now that the day after the election you returned to Mr. Hughes 30L or 40L. ? — The day after the election we balanced up, and I was thinking whether he might have taken it then.

• 1803.

  I do not follow you, because there is a broad distinction between paying 41 people 6L. each and paying Mr. Hughes a lump sum of 40L ? — I thought I might have returned it the day after the election, but I think it was laid out the canvassers.

• 1804.

  Forgive me, because I do not follow you ; what gave you the idea that you had returned Mr. Hughes 40L if you had never done it ? — You stated that there was 40L debited against me by Mr. Hughes, and my impression was that if I had 40L I returned it to him the day after the election.