Simmons, Daniel George Frederick | Day 17

Questioned at very great length about his expenses. He was somewhat ‘forgetful’ and ‘careless’ in his record keeping. Although he had previously lived in the area and knew many of the people involved in the election, he was rather vague about who he had dealings with!

Witness Type: Briber, Freeman, Treater

Party: Conservative

Witness Testimony:

  • 18920.

    On the day of the election ? — Yes, and he wanted about £10, and I said I had only £10, and I must have some to get home with tomorrow, and I said if £7 would do I would give him that myself.

  • 18921.

    I thought you said it was for some charities ? — Well I put it down under that head, being the last item I could recollect. I fully expected Mr Crompton Roberts would ask me for some particulars of that account, and I told Mr Spofforth when I saw him that I had got so much money to account for, and Mr Spofforth said, “You had better send in a detailed account as well as you can,” and I did so.

  • 18922.

    Was this £7 which you gave to Dr Hulke to pay for champagne he had paid for, or was it for charities ? — He told me it was for petty cash out of pocket.

  • 18923.

    But what did he say about it; was it all for champagne which he had paid for ? — He enumerated two or three things.

  • 18924.

    What were they ? — I think there was 30s for damage to a trap, or something of that kind.

  • 18925.

    What trap was that, and how did the damage occur? Why should Mr Crompton Roberts pay for damage to a trap ? — I do not know. I have a very rough recollection of the circumstance. I did not go into the question.

  • 18926.

    You had been electioneering before, you know ? — Well, with a gentleman in Dr Hulke‘s position I did not like to catechise him too much.

  • 18927.

    There is 30s for damage to a trap. Now, what is the rest ? — I am sure I cannot recollect.

  • 18928.

    You said he paid for champagne ? — Yes. I do not know really what it was. I did not ask him immediately; I relied on his word. With a gentleman of his position, I thought I should be perfectly justified in doing it.

  • 18929.

    He asked you for £10 ? — About £10, he thought.

  • 18930.

    He must have given you some reason, or said for what he wanted it. You would not give him £10 simply because he said, “Simmons, will you give me £10” ? — If he had done so I should have given it to him if I had got it.

  • 18931.

    But you say he mentioned something about damage to a trap, and about some champagne he had paid for; what else did he mention ? — I really cannot recollect at this moment.

  • 18932.

    Did he say any of this sum was for charity ? — He might have said so.

  • 18933.

    Of course, he might have said anything, but I want you to take your mind back to the time, and tell us what he really did say, because I think you really must remember more than you are telling us now ? — I really do not, and I was trying very hard to remember all yesterday.

  • 18934.

    But what charities were these? You say you were very anxious to avoid anything questionable, and this was the middle of the election day. Having been engaged in an election before, you must have been aware that it was a critical time ? — I really do not recollect anything else that he said; simply that it was for disbursements.

  • 18935.

    How came you to put it down in the account, “Sums at various times handed to Dr Hulke for small charities” ? — That was a rough draft account at the time. I quite expected that Mr Crompton Roberts would ask me for details afterwards.

  • 18936.

    But I cannot see why in the rough draft account you should put down something under a head not at all applicable ? — I summarised the whole thing.

  • 18937.

    Was any of the £7 for charities or not, as far as you know ? — Certainly, similar charities to that you have mentioned in the account.

  • 18938.

    Did Dr Hulke tell you at all that any of it was for charities ? — I cannot swear he made use of that word.

  • 18939.

    Then why do you say some of it was ? — Some of the other was undoubtedly.

  • 18940.

    I am now upon Dr Hulke’s £7 ? — Well, I rather think that is supposition on my part.

  • 18941.

    Then you do not know if any part of this £7 was expended in charity of any kind ? — No, I do not.

  • 18942.

    Then all you can tell us is that Dr Hulke said something about 30s for damage to a trap, and that he had paid for some champagne ? — Yes, I cannot recollect anything else.

  • 18943.

    Then how this £7 was made up you do not know ? — Simply petty cash transactions. He called it petty cash transactions; making use of that term.

  • 18944.

    Do you know anything more about that £7, and how it was spent, than what you have told us ? — No, I do not.

  • 18945.

    Are you quite sure of that ? — Positive.

  • 18946.

    Then, in point of fact, all you really know is that you gave Dr Hulke £7, to be expended for some purpose ? — Simply to recoup him.

  • 18947.

    In respect of something which he described under the name of petty cash disbursements ? — Yes.

  • 18948.

    Now, how much did you give to Mr Bristow ? — I cannot recollect; they were all small sums, I know.

  • 18949.

    But about how much ? — I really cannot say.