Testimonies

Foord, Charles Ross | Day 16

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 18061.

  You do not suggest that there would have been the slightest financial difficulty in going to the bank at Rochester, and getting 1,000L. or 1,200L. in money ? — I do not suppose so, but my brother knows better about that. I do not suppose that any manager of any bank in the county of Kent would refuse me 1,000L. whether I had got it or not.

• 18062.

  You say that it has been your habit for some years to keep a considerable sum of money in the house for the purpose of paying wages ? — Yes.

• 18063.

  That habit was well known, I suppose ; you made no secret of it ? — No.

• 18064.

  Mr. Belsey would know it even, I suppose ? — No, I do not suppose so ; why should he know it? My sisters reside in my father’s house, and my younger brother, and they will be able to prove it. On account of what happened to the English Joint Stock bank, we have always taken care to have sufficient money in the house, so that if by any chance our bank were to stop, our men would not go without their wages.

• 18065.

  That is well known to be your habit ? — We keep our business within ourselves ; we do not have a bellman round to tell what our habits are.

• 18066.

  You have done that for many years ? — Yes, we have always done it since the English Joint Stock bank went.

• 18067.

  I understand you to say you have not communicated with Sir Julian Goldsmid upon this subject since ? — I have only seen Sir Julian Goldsmid once, and that was at a meeting where he sat at one end of the table, and I at the other; we did shake hands, but we had no conversation either in reference to Rochester or Sandwich. I merely asked how he was. I have only seen him but that once, nor have I had any conversation or correspondence with him.

• 18068.

  After you took this money down you did not write to Sir Julian Goldsmid to say that you had taken down the money for him ? — No.

• 18069.

  Nor to Mr. Belsey ? — Mr. Belsey knew that I had gone to London to do it, and I think I told him I had done it. I told several friends that I had done it . I did not keep the matter secret, and my own children and my sisters knew that I had been to Sandwich and taken the money. I had no object in keeping it secret in any way. As I have said before, if a man does a kind action he would not send a bellman round about it, but if you had come and asked me whether I had taken the money down, I should have said at once that I had done so, and I say now that I would do it again, and I am not ashamed of what I have done.

• 18070.

  What struck you as the reason why Sir Julian Goldsmid should send to you at Rochester to take 1,200L. ? — The reason was, J suppose, that it was not convenient to draw the same amount himself, or he had not made his arrangements ; I do not know. If I had known you as well as I had known Sir Julian Goldsmid, and you had wanted me to send down 1,500L., I should have done it with a great deal of pleasure, and I daresay you have got friends who would do the same thing for you.

• 18071.

  You simply did it because you were asked to do it ? — Yes, I have the greatest confidence in Sir Julian Goldsmid, and if he asked me to do it I should not ask him why ; why should I ask a gentleman why he wanted me to send him 1,500L. ?

• 18072.

  (Mr. Holl.) You say that you would not have had any difficulty with any bank in Kent in getting 1,000L. or 1,200L. ? — I do not think so ; we are well known.

• 18073.

  I understand you to say that you do not know personally what your balance at the Rochester bank at that time was ? — Yes.

• 18074.

  In the ordinary course of business, if you had had a balance at the Joint Stock bank exceeding 1,500L. but not so large a balance at the Rochester bank, upon which bank would you have drawn ? — 0n the London Joint Stock bank.

• 18075.

  You would not ask a favour ? — No. I have never been under an obligation to a bank in my life and I do not mean to be if I can help it.

• 18076.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Would you in the ordinary course of your business go up to London and back, and bring down money in gold, to pay 1,200L. ? — If you ask me that question, I may say that some few years ago we did it for two or three months ; we brought all our money down from the London Joint Stock to pay our wages.

• 18077.

  Was that at the time of the financial crisis ? — Yes.

• 18078.

  You doubted the stability of the banks at Rochester at the time ? —Yes, we were in trouble with one ; we had 4,000L. or 5,000L. locked up in the English Joint Stock bank. We were then right with the London Joint Stock bank, and, besides, we had got Exchequer bills, so that we should not be in any trouble. We are rather careful people about money matters.

• 18079.

  (Mr. Holl.) You took a memorandum from Mr. Emmerson for the receipt of this money ? — Yes.

• 18080.

  And you say that you told him that somebody else was interested in the money. Can you remember when it was that you told him that ; was it previous to asking for the receipt, or when ? — About the same time as we were sitting there talking. After I had given him the money, I said, “Mr. Emmerson, you will not mind just giving me a memorandum that I have brought you down this money,” and he said “No, certainly not, you shall have it,” and he gave me that little thing that I have produced.

• 18081.

  Had you any object in telling him that somebody else was interested in the money ? — I meant to imply this, that Sir Julian Goldsmid had not drawn the cheque, and that I had been merely his servant to bring down a certain sum of money ; that the money was not Sir Julian Goldsmid’s money, but I never meant to imply but that Sir Julian Goldsmid would repay it, because I knew he would.

• 18406.

  Recalled and further examined.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Did you spend any money for Sir Julian Goldsmid ever at any election at Rochester ? — What do you mean?

• 18407.

  Lay out money in the election ? — Do you mean whether I did anything illegal ?

• 18408.

  No; did you find money ? — I have told you the same as Mr Belsey has told you, that I know but very little about the financial arrangements of our party. Since my father’s death my brother has taken my father’s position in regard to payments and such like that may be necessary, and I know nothing about it.

• 18409.

  I only want to get the fact: did you ever advance any money for Sir Julian Goldsmid for the purposes of an election at Rochester ? — Personally, do you mean?

• 18410.

  Yes ? — No.

• 18411.

  Do you know of any money being advanced to Sir Julian Goldsmid for the purposes of an election at Rochester ? — No, I do not, and my brother must answer these questions. We always pay all Sir Julian Goldsmid’s subscriptions and such like, but if you ask me whether we ever advanced money for any illegal expenditure at Rochester, then I say no, and not one of our family has ever done such a thing.

• 18412.

  Pray do not be angry; I did not put it as an illegitimate expenditure ? — I will give you an instance, after the election in 1868 my late friend Mr Philip Martin, when his expenditure was sent in, asked me if I would see to it for him, and I did pay a few hundred pounds. Rochester is a very inexpensive place, and I paid that out of my own pocket for Mr Martin.

• 18413.

  I am not asking you about that: do you know whether your firm has ever advanced any money to Sir Julian Goldsmid (I am not putting it for illegitimate purposes) for the purposes of sections at Rochester ? — No, I do not know it; my brother will answer those questions.

• 18414.

  You do not know ? — No. I would rather not answer the question. I would rather say I do not know, because the next question you will ask me will be “how much,” and that I do not know.