Ramell, John Pettet | Day 4

Some discrepancy over the amount he received. Also his brother William Henry Ramell, raised concerns over whether putting up the flags was legal. An Act of Parliament had outlawed ‘colouring elections’ a quarter of a century earlier.

Mr Baldwin was paid for materials for flags.

Witness Type: Briber, Councillor / Alderman

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 5

Witness Testimony:

  • 4143.

    Did you have a conversation with each of them separately, and arrange with them what they were to have ? — No, the last four I did not. Whilmshurst himself took the money and arranged with them.

  • 4144.

    I will take Mr. Snoswell, for example ; I suppose you saw him and arranged that he was to have 5L. ? — Yes

  • 4145.

    Was that before the actual voting ? — Yes.

  • 4146.

    I suppose that applies also to Erridge ; you saw him and arranged with him that he was to have 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4147.

    And Mr. Smith, of 96, High Street, who had only 4L. ? — He was to have 5L., only I had got an account against him. He really has had the 5L and I have only returned it as 4L.

  • 4148.

    (Mr. Holl.) He had 4L., and a set-off of 1L. ? — He has got the other, because he had it in goods.

  • 4149.

    (Mr. Jeune.) He got money, or money’s worth ? — Yes, money’s worth.

  • 4150.

    Then Verstage, Griffin Street, 5L. ; you arranged with him, I suppose, that he was to have 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4151.

    And Thompsett, 5, Alfred Square; did you arrange that he was to have 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4152.

    The other four were arranged for together ? — Yes, they were to have the other money when it was got, but they could not get any more. They. were each to have 5L.

  • 4153.

    When it could be got ? — Yes.

  • 4154.

    I am afraid they will have to wait sometime for it. Is that all the money you received ? — Yes, every farthing. I should like to say this : I have had a good deal to do with elections formerly, but I have never found it so difficult a matter in canvassing as I have done this year, and I lay it all to this Ballot Act. At one time we could always get a promise, or not a promise, so as to know what we were about, but now when you go to a man’s house they will say, “What are you going to give us, so-and-so has offered me such an amount, cannot you do it ?”

  • 4155.

    Were you at all afraid, after having promised this money, that after all they might vote the other side ? — No, not the parties I got ; I thought I could depend upon them. I only got those I could rely upon.

  • 4156.

    You think as a rule the man who is promised money votes the way he has promised to vote ? — I am afraid this time it was not so.

  • 4157.

    Do you think they ever take money from both sides ? — I do not think ; I know it.

  • 4158.

    If it is doubtful whether they will vote the way they have promised, and if there is a chance of their taking money from both sides, do you think it is less worthwhile than it was to bribe ? — You must do it for the best ; it is a risk.

  • 4159.

    You think it is worth doing upon the chance of a man’s voting the way you mean him to vote ? — It is a very bad plan I know. In old times they used to bribe certainly almost to the same extent as now, only in a different way. In old times they would give it in large sums like 20L., 30L., and 50L., but now you see it is a general thing, and you can hardly go to a house without their saying, ” What are we to have.”

  • 4160.

    You think the effect of the ballot is that it is necessary to bribe more persons than used to be the case ? — I know it has spoilt Deal.

  • 4161.

    In your experience do most people in this constituency expect something or another ? — Yes, now they do.

  • 4162.

    What should you say, 9 out of every 10 would like to get something ? — No, I do not go so far as that, but I would say 6 out of every 10 do.

  • 4163.

    They would expect to get something ? — Yes.

  • 4164.

    If there is something going they would like to have their share ? — Yes, and naturally enough too, one should have it as well as another.

  • 4165.

    Supposing there was money on one side and not upon the other, I suppose there would be very little chance for the side who did not spend money ? — Most decidedly.

  • 4166.

    With regard to this election, do you think, roughly speaking, about the same amount of money was spent on both sides ? — No, we did not go into it so deep as they did, because we could not get it.

  • 4167.

    Do you think that the result of the election was determined by the greater amount of money spent upon the one side than on the other ? — Yes, decidedly.

  • 4168.

    Do you think if you had had another 1,000L. placed at your disposal, with which you could have done what you liked, that you could have carried the election ? — No, and I will tell you for why. There was a very wise trick, I think, played up on the part of the Conservatives ; they gave the parties to understand that if they did not return a Conservative this time they would not have a chance again, because they would not bring one down, and that, I think, had a great influence with them.

  • 4169.

    You thought that told ? — Yes, it was a very good trick, and I give them credit for it.

  • 4170.

    Of course it would interest almost everybody here ? — Yes, most decidedly. Even our people themselves said, We may as well give them a turn over this ” time.”

  • 4171.

    Even a good many of the Liberals, I suppose, thought it would be just as well to have a contest pretty often ? — Yes, most decidedly.

  • 4172.

    A good many people at this election got something out of it one way or the other ? — Yes.