Testimonies

Cloke, Frederick Spencer | Day 4

Witness Type: Briber, Petition witness

Party: Conservative

Witness Testimony:

• 3697.

  They would take the will for the deed ; there was the will there at any rate ? — Yes.

• 3698.

  Now I have asked you about what you received yourself alone and spent. We know now perfectly well, of course, what took place as regards the distribution of money at Sandwich.

  How far were you cognisant of that ? — I was cognisant of it towards the latter part of the contest, from observations which fell from time to time from those engaged in it.

  I endeavoured, as far as possible, to avoid hearing anything, but I could not, of course, be quite blind to the fact that money was being paid or promised. The only thing I could do was to keep entirely clear from it, and not be in any way, either directly or indirectly, a medium of communication.

  I refused to have anything to do with it, and any communications made with people for the purpose of bribery were made without my previous knowledge, or the slightest arrangement with me.

  I was not the medium of making any arrangements or making the payments, and, in fact, I did not know exactly what payments were made, or exactly what was done.

  I know more now, since the Commission opened, than I ever knew before, for I have seen some of those engaged in it, and advised them what to do, and sent them down to see Mr. Baggally . Until then, really I did not know exactly to what extent it had gone. I could not help forming a pretty fair idea, of course.

• 3699.

  I daresay you have heard or read the evidence that has been given here by Mr. Olds, so you know what he refers to, and how far he was concerned, and what he did.

  Now, besides what has been given in evidence already as to the distribution of this money through Mr. Olds, do you know of any other distribution of money ? — No ; Mr. Olds has always been associated in my mind with the distribution of money.

• 3700.

  No one else ? — No one else. My impression is, from what I have gathered, that he has been really the medium by which the money has been distributed. I have not heard of anybody else.

• 3701.

  You have not heard of anybody else, except Mr. Olds, receiving money for the purpose of distribution for bribery ? — No, and I am not aware that he received it, except what I have heard.

• 3702.

  You know that as we know it ? — Yes.

• 3703.

  I suppose you do not know, and have no means of knowing, from whom this money came which came to Mr. Old’s hands. Mr. Olds tells us it was a dark gentleman, whose name he did not know. Do you know who that person was ? — I have not the slightest idea.

• 3704.

  You have never heard the man’s name ? — I have not; I do not know at all.

• 3705.

  You do not know at all who it was ? — I do not know at all ; I have no suspicion.

• 3706.

  Mr. Olds told us that the persons to whom he gave the money were Hughes, Giles, Hooper, Lock, and East. Those were the persons he made the medium for distributing this money in Sandwich ; do you know whether there was anybody else who received money for distribution ? — No. If you had asked me, I should not have named East. I should have named the other four as persons I guessed had money.

• 3707.

  But you did not know of anybody else ? — No, but I should say there was nobody else likely to have any, except they were substitutes really, or got it from the others.

• 3708.

  (Mr. Holl.) You have told us what your view was and what your objects were with regard to the paying of the 18 houses ? — Yes.

• 3709.

  You did not take them yourself ? — I did not take any of them. I may have authorised, however, one or two of them.

• 3710.

  You don’t know what the object of taking them, or the arrangement made by those who did take them was ? — No, I don’t, but I know that as to some of those that were taken by other people the persons had no votes, and I know also with reference to the others that I wrote and had them canvassed in the usual way, and that I never looked upon the taking of them as securing their votes.

• 3711.

  You do not know what arrangement was made by anybody who took them, or what their objects were ? — No, I refused to accept them, until I was assured by Mr. Hughes that I was perfectly safe in doing so. Those were the first houses. Of course, later on, a few were engaged that I had knowledge of.

• 3712.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Do you know whether that Mr. John Drayson we were talking about just now who gave you this receipt for 30L , is John Christopher Drayson ? — No, certainly not. Mr. John Christopher Drayson is a very old gentleman, who has been Major of Sandwich in his time, and is one of the magistrates.

• 3713.

  (Mr. Holl.) Quite a different sort of man ? — Yes, quite a different sort of man.

• 3714.

  (Mr. Jeune.) He is not I suppose George Foord Drayson ? — No, George is, I think, a son of John Christopher Drayson. Mr. Hooper can tell you more about this John Drayson than I can, I took it from what he said, and, relying upon what he said, I paid him.

• 3715.

  I should like to ascertain this, because, if so, it certainly clears up your list completely. This John Drayson, who received this 3L., was not a voter, as far as I can see ? — I could not say he was.

• 3716.

  There are three parishes in Sandwich ? — Yes.

• 3717.

  There is John Christopher Drayson and George Foord Drayson, those are the only two Draysons, as far as I can see. (After a pause.) Oh ! in St. Peter’s parish there is John Drayson. He is a voter I see ? — He lives somewhere near the market. I don’t know the place.

• 3718.

  I see he is a voter, “ John Drayson, Sandwich ” ? — I could not say positively one way or the other.

• 3719.

  John Christopher Drayson is quite a different man ? — Yes.

• 3720.

  What canvassing book is that (handing same to the Witness). Is this one of your canvassing books that you sent out ? — This is a book in which the information got from time to time was worked up. This book in pencil was made out for the personal canvass of Mr. Crompton Roberts.

  They wanted to test the canvass ; so, instead of giving him simply the old book with all the notes of the different canvassers in it, I gave him a clean book with which he would go round with a messenger named Hall, who was specially devoted to that duty, and he made his own entries, and anything fresh worth entering in the other book, I entered it, but, if not, I took no notice of it.

• 3721.

  Who was sent round with him ; Hall, do you say ? — Yes, a man named Hall, who was a messenger, and devoted entirely to going round with the candidate. He was a man who knew the place thoroughly and accompanied him in the whole of his canvass.

• 3722.

  Are those pencil marks in his handwriting ? — The pencil marks are in Mr. Crompton Roberts’ handwriting, I think ; I have no doubt about it. (Mr. Jeune.) They look to me like it, too. I dare say Mr. Crompton Roberts can explain that book himself.

• 3723.

  (Mr. Holl.) Mr. Hughes, Mr. Giles, Mr. Hooper, and Mr. Lock were all members of the Conservative committee at Sandwich, I think ? — Mr. Giles, Mr. Hooper, and Mr. Hughes were, I think ; but I don’t think Mr. Lock was. I think he came very late into it.

• 3724.

  Giles, Hughes, and Hooper were ? — Yes.

• 3725.

  And East ? — I don’t think he was ; I never saw him at the meeting. Of course there would have been others present at the meeting, not included in that list Mr. Giles is not a voter ; he is not within the borough.

• 3726.

  Hughes was a member, you say ? — Yes.