Testimonies

Hughes, Edwin | Day 19

Witness Type: Briber, Petition witness

Party: Conservative

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 20

Witness Testimony:

• 19388.

  (Mr. Holl.) I see, with regard to this flag and colour department, there is an account made out under that head for £142 1s 6d, and then there is an account, “Paid as per vouchers” (without saying for what), an amount of nearly £400 ? — That is for flags and rosettes.

• 19389.

  I see in the returned accounts you give it under the head of clerks ? — Yes, part of that is clerks.

• 19390.

  But I do not see anything for clerks ? — The £6 given to Usher in the first instance was for clerks.

• 19391.

  I see Mr. Usher says in his evidence, “On the third day, I think it was, I was down at the committee room. People bothered Mr. Hughes for flags and colours, and he said, ‘I wish someone would take this off my hands.’ I said, “What is it ?” He said, “To look after the flags and colours; I suppose we shall be bound to have them.” ? — Yes, but only bound if the others had them.

• 19392.

  That was the third day ? — It was talked about, but there was no order given to make flags upon that day.

• 19393.

  Is it correct that upon that day that authority was given to him ? — That is not an authority, but it is an expression of opinion that we should have to have them at a future time, but following the lead of the other side.

• 19394.

  Then he says, “I said, ‘Very well, I will undertake anything of that sort’” (Q) You say Mr. Hughes came down on the 5th ? (A) Yes. (Q) You were engaged for two or three days? (A) I will not be sure. I expect this would be about Friday, about the 7th ? — We talked about flags undoubtedly. I distinctly said I would not have flags at all unless the other side had them.

• 19395.

  Then he is asked, “Did he give you authority to do what you thought proper with regard to that?” (A) He said, “I will leave it entirely in your hands” ? — Yes, that is when it was wanted, but primarily it was not to be had at all if the other side did not fly any. Whatever the conversation was, it was the subject of general observation that no flags were to be had upon our side if the other side did not start them, and no flag was displayed upon our side, I am quite certain, until a day or two after the others had started them. That is a fact, about which there can be no doubt; there was no bunting upon our side until the other side began to fly

• 19396.

  Then Mr. Usher is asked again, “I see you sent in an account of what you had either paid or rendered yourself liable for ? — (A) Yes. I may explain that I made the payments at different times. As soon as I had incurred responsibilities to the amount of £100 I sent to Mr. Hughes and asked him for a cheque ? — I do not know when he gave the order, but I do not think that he would give an order until after Sir Julian Goldsmid came down, because I distinctly said that I would not have any flags if I could help it.

• 19397.

  His statement is that upon the 14th he got the cheque, and up to that time he had incurred responsibility to the extent of £100 ? — Sir Julian Goldsmid had been down three days then.

• 19398.

  According to his evidence he got the cheque upon the 14th and had asked for it a day or two before, and had incurred responsibility at the time of asking for the cheque to the extent of £100 ? — I cannot contradict him, because I do not know what responsibility be did incur.

• 19399.

  According to that evidence, before Sir Julian Goldsmid came down he must have incurred responsibility to the extent of £100 ? — I cannot say.

• 19400.

  (Mr. Turner.) Did you find any flagging upon the part of Sir Julian’s party before he came down ? — No, I think not. I do not think that I saw any flags upon the other side before Sir Julian came down, because there was nothing to fly a flag to; they had no candidate.

• 19401.

  We have had evidence before us that there were flags flying upon the day he came down ? — Yes, they were up directly; directly it was known that Sir Julian had decided to stand. Everybody that had a blue rag in the place was out with it at once, even if it were only something hanging out of a window with the window shut down upon it.

• 19402.

  (Mr. Holl.) Then I see Mr. Usher, in his further evidence, says: “I think, by the bye, I had incurred a greater liability at that time, but I said, ‘Give me £100 for the present, because people do not care about supplying colours on a second account until they had been paid the first.’” He got another £100 upon the 15th, the following day ? — Yes.

• 19403.

  So that upon the following day, the 15th, he must have incurred responsibility to the extent of £200 ? — Yes.

• 19404.

  What was the object in the accounts that you handed in to the judges upon the election petition of putting the whole of this £370 payable to Usher under the head of ‘Clerks, etc.’ ? — A portion of it was clerks.

• 19405.

  I do not find any item there for clerks ? — I told the judges that it was undoubtedly an impropriety, and there is an end of it.

• 19406.

  I suppose you thought this was a sort of expenditure that it would be as well not to make too prominent ? — Yes, I did not think it worthwhile, upon the face of the account, to illegalise it.

• 19407.

  That is, to draw particular attention to the item ? — Yes.

• 19408.

  Then there is a considerable amount spent in canvassers, messengers, and so forth, £600-odd ? — Yes, whatever is in the account.

• 19409.

  There is £450, I think, paid to canvassers ? — Yes.

• 19410.

  Were those canvassers paid to canvass in the ordinary sense, or was it to secure their votes ? — No, they worked very hard for it; they earned their money because I kept them at it all day long, and they really worked very hard.

• 19411.

  Were they employed to obtain and secure votes by promising payment ? — No, by canvassing in the ordinary sense.

• 19412.

  We find as a matter of fact, that they did promise ? — They did it upon their own responsibility.

• 19413.

  How soon did they do that after Sir Julian Goldsmid came down ? — I cannot tax my memory.

• 19414.

  It could not have been before ? — I do not think it was before that.

• 19415.

  But before the election a considerable time ? — Before the election, no doubt. Some of them would say, “If the other side want you to vote for them, and offer you anything, do not let that influence your vote.”

• 19416.

  Were they not really authorised to ascertain who amongst their friends could be relied upon to vote for the Conservative side for a consideration ? — No, that was all done before Sir Julian came down. There was no promise of payment in the first instance to my knowledge.

• 19417.

  Do I understand you to represent that the constituency, about which we know something now, were so pure at a time before Sir Julian came down that up to that time they did not ask for money ? — Plenty of them asked, but I put them down as Liberals at once. I said they were dangerous customers and there was no use bothering about them. We got 1400 promises, in my opinion, without any stipulation for payment at all, and if Sir Julian’s party had not bribed and we had not bribed we should have got in.