Testimonies

Foord, Charles Ross | Day 16

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 18001.

  (Mr. Jeune.) “R.J.E.,” is that Mr.Emmerson’s signature ? — Yes, that is his own handwriting.

• 18002.

  This was the receipt that Mr. Emmerson gave you ? — Yes. I merely said to Mr. Emmerson, “It is just as well, as there are other people interested in the money that you should give me a memorandum that I have given it to you. I daresay you will not mind doing that,” and he said, “Certainly not,” and he gave that to me.

• 18003.

  That is the only receipt he gave you ? — Yes, that is all.

• 18004.

  You observe upon the face of it it is undated ? — I did not notice that.

• 18005.

  And it has no receipt stamp ? — No.

• 18006.

  And it has only Mr. Emmerson’s initials ? — Yes.

• 18007.

  Is it your habit in business to have receipts in this form where you pay away as much as 1,500L. ? — No. I did not think it was necessary to take a receipt. You see it was not a payment.

• 18008.

  Did you have any conversation with Mr. Emmerson. You told him something ; what did you tell him ? — I had merely a conversation to the effect that I had brought him down the money from Rochester.

• 18009.

  Did you say it had come from Sir Julian Goldsmid’s friends ? — Yes, and so it did.

• 18010.

  Did you mean by that to convey that it had not come from Sir Julian himself ? — No, I meant to convey that I was a friend of Sir Julian’s, and I had brought it down.

• 18011.

  That may mean one of two things; did you mean Mr. Emmerson to understand that Sir Julian Goldsmid’s friends had found that money, or that it was in fact Sir Julian Goldsmid’s money ? — I did not mean to convey to Mr. Emmerson that that money was found by the friends of Sir Julian Goldsmid and that he would not have to repay it. I did not mean that. I meant to convey that the money was found by friends of Sir Julian, but I had no wish that Mr. Emmerson should understand that the friends of Sir Julian Goldsmid had found the money for an improper purpose from Rochester, so that Sir Julian might know nothing about it. Why should I do that when I met Mr. Emmerson by Sir Julian’s instructions ?

• 18012.

  Did Mr. Emmerson tell you that he met you by Sir Julian’s instructions ? — Or words to that effect. He said that Sir Julian had told him, “I should meet a gentleman at the railway.”

• 18013.

  Then it strikes me there was very little reason in your saying that it was from Sir Julian Goldsmid’s friends. What object had you in saying that it had come from Sir Julian Goldsmid’s friends ? — I think I qualified it, but I will not swear to it, by saying that I had not cashed any cheque of Sir Julian Goldsmid’s, that the money was simply brought down by myself, and that it was my own money, or money of myself and firm.

• 18014.

  That is what you meant to say to Mr. Emmerson ? — Yes.

• 18015.

  When you said that the money came from Sir Julian Goldsmid’s friends what you meant to convey was that it was not a cheque of Sir Julian Goldsmid’s but the money had been found independently in the sense of your having found it, or your firm having found it ? — Yes, that is what I meant, and I think I told Mr. Emmerson that I had had to go to London to change the cheque.

• 18016.

  Do you think you told Mr. Emmerson that ? — Yes, I think I told him that in the course of conversation I had been up to London to change the cheque. I would not swear to such a thing as that because I cannot tax my memory so far back, and I have many other things to think of.

• 18017.

  Did you eyer in your life advance Sir Julian Goldsmid any money before ? — Me personally ?

• 18018.

  First of all you ? — Our firm always paid Sir Julian Goldsmid’s registration fees and subscriptions.

• 18019.

  You have not personally advanced Sir Julian Goldsmid any money before ? — No.

• 18020.

  What has your firm paid for Sir Julian ? — As I have told you before subscriptions of different kinds, registration fees, and so on, have always been paid by our firm and arranged by my brother. My late father did the same for Serjeant Kinglake and Mr. Philip Martin, and continued it on for the last 25 years. If Sir Julian Goldsmid has written to us to say that subscriptions to a certain amount were to be paid, or registration fees, our firm has always paid it, but if you want to know the amount you had better ask my brother if he will tell you, though I very much doubt whether he will, because it has nothing to do with Sandwich.

• 18021.

  You might have spared that last observation because you do no good by such observations. There are certain questions that must be asked, and must be answered, and the sooner the better for us all. Did you, or your firm, ever act as agents in connexion with the elections at Rochester ? — What do you mean as agents ?

• 18022.

  As agent for expenses ? — No, certainly not.

• 18023.

  Did you ever pay or find any money for Sir Julian Goldsmid for his elections at Rochester. I do not mean registration expenses, but in connexion with the elections at Rochester ? — I think if you want to ask me those questions you had better ask my brother.

• 18024.

  You do not know ? —I do know, but I could not answer you properly. If any money has been wanted at an election or after an election, and it was not convenient to Sir Julian, we should pay it and give it to the agent. It has been our custom all our lifetime to do it.

• 18025.

  Has your firm to your knowledge — and if you do not know, say so — found any money for Sir Julian Goldsmid for his elections at Rochester ? —I know nothing about amounts, but I know that we have paid Sir Julian Goldsmid’s registration expenses.

• 18026.

  I excluded those in my question. What I am asking you is whether you or your firm, to your knowledge (and I am not talking of registration expenses), have found any money for Sir Julian Goldsmid for his elections at Rochester ? — No, I do not know.

• 18027.

  Does your brother know ? — I do not know; you had better ask him what he knows.

• 18028.

  You do not know anything about that ? — No, I know nothing about what is in my brother’s mind.

• 18029.

  Otherwise than as regards elections, do you know whether your firm has paid any and what sums for Sir Julian Goldsmid ? — No ; and I would rather, if you want to know anything about Sir Julian Goldsmid’s private affairs (I know very little about them, never having troubled my head about it), that you should ask my brother.

• 18030.

  Are there any other members of the firm besides your elder brother and yourself ? — Yes, two other brothers.