Testimonies

Spofforth, Samuel | Day 2

Witness Type: Other

Party: Conservative

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 1

Witness Testimony:

• 825.

  You did not get any information from them, directly or indirectly ? -No, I did not

• 826.

  I see you say, “Ralph says that one or two of his men are rather afraid of Elliott turning up.” That is what he told you, I suppose ? — Yes.

• 827.

  Did he tell you which men were afraid of Elliott turning up ? — No.

• 828.

  You never personally saw them ? — No, I never personally saw them, nor inquired of them.

• 828.

  That meant, I suppose, that Elliott had been concerned in payments made to these men and they were afraid of his turning up and splitting ? — Yes, exactly.

• 829.

  You never saw Elliott ? — Yes, I took a long proof down from him.

• 830.

  You understood from Elliott that he had been engaged in bribing certain persons ? — I understood it from him, but I did not ask him the question, because I was upon another matter with another object, and then he disappeared.

• 831.

  When Ralph told you that some of his men were afraid of Elliott turning up, what he meant to convey was that they were afraid Elliott would turn up, and would give some information or another which would compromise them ? — Yes, that he would split.

• 832.

  You told me yesterday that you found that Elliott had been up to London, and was supposed to have given information to Mr. George Lewis ? — I understood it from himself.

• 833.

  It was through Elliott, as you understand it, that Mr. George Lewis and the petitioner got on the trade of the bribery, and obtained their first information ? — That was only a matter of supposition. I have no means of forming any opinion upon it beyond mere rumour.

• 834.

  It was merely from what you were told, and the other evidence which you obtained ? — Yes.

• 835.

  I see opposite one name here. No. 122, John Chapman Grant, there is written, “If at all by a man named License, not charged as a briber.” From whom did you obtain that information ? — I cannot say.

• 836.

  Was it from the third person you have named ? — No.

• 837.

  Did you see Mr. John Chapman Grant ? — No.

• 838.

  Can you tell me where you found out that, if at all, he had been bribed by a man named Lysons ? — No.

• 839.

  Do you know who License was ? — No.

• 840.

  You did not see License (Lysons ?) himself ? — No.

• 841.

  And you cannot tell me from what information you wrote that ? — No, it was from information obtained down here.

• 842.

  Then, opposite the name of Thomas Cribben, junior, boatman, there is written, “Received 3L. to vote for Sir Julian. It was put into his wife’s lap, and she gave it to him, and she can prove it.” Did you see her ? — No.

• 843.

  Can you tell me from where you obtained that information ? — No, I cannot ; I do not remember seeing Cribben.

• 844.

  Have you any memorandum of seeing Cribben ? — No. I may have seen him but I do not remember it, because I saw a good many people mostly charged at bribers, and a very few, if any, charged as bribees.

• 845.

  You must have received this information from some one, because it is very specific, “Received 3L. to vote for Sir Julian. It was put into his wife’s lap and she gave it to him, and she can prove it.” That must have been given to you by somebody ? — I must have put it down, because it is in red ink, but from whom I received the information I cannot say.

• 846.

  Then I see opposite to one name here, “Dead some months before the election, 26th September 1879. Certificate produced and proved by Mr. Olds.” That is opposite the name of Henry Nicholas, boatman, and it suggests to me to ask you this, did you ask Mr. Olds as to the truth of these charges ? — Do you mean as regards that particular person ?

• 847.

  Yes ? — Mr. Olds brought me the certificate of death or produced it.

• 848.

  Did he give you any other information with regard to any other of these persons besides producing the certificate ? — I do not remember that he did. I was often in communication with him, and I saw him several times during the visits I paid here before the hearing of the petition.

• 849.

  We have him giving you information as regards one person out of a very large list, did he not give you any information with regard to any other persons who were alleged to have been bribed ? — No.

• 850.

  He must have gone through this list, and picked out this one whose death he could prove, did you not ask him about any other cases of bribery ? — I did not particularly ask him, but I am bound to say I formed an impression from what passed as to the truth of the charges in regard to a considerable portion of them. I cannot go further than that ; but so far I must go.

• 851.

  Then I see opposite the name of Valentine Myhill this written, “He never touched one of these men given below.” I suppose that was information which you derived from Valentine Myhill himself ? — Yes.

• 852.

  It means that he never bribed, I suppose ? — Yes.

• 853.

  Did he tell you who he had given money to ? — No.