Testimonies

Testimonies

• 1035.

  And those in the second ? — For Mr. Crompton Roberts.

• 1036.

  And those in the third ? — There are no marks against those ; if there are, I don’t know what they are.

• 1037.

  There is a mark in the third column there (pointing) ? — That must be some mistake.

• 1038.

  (Mr. Jeune.) With regard to these persons whom you employed, was it ever suggested to them that they ought not to vote ? — No, it was not on this occasion. It has been customary in former elections to have an understanding between either party to pair off so many instead of voting — that those who are employed and cannot vote under the provisions of the Act of Parliament should not do so, but that they should pair off with parties on the opposite side who were in a similar position. On this occasion the point was never suggested, and it does not appear to have occurred to any of us that we were infringing the provisions of any Act of Parliament in Toting. I do not recollect any conversation or allusion to it at all, but I believe it was done and not thought of. We generally find that it operates about the same on either side ; there is a certain number, and if you pair them off it is a tolerably equal thing, and that is the best thing to do always, and what we have generally done on former occasions. On this occasion it was not done.

• 1039.

  There are one or two things I am not quite satisfied about yet — that is, with regard to this money you received, but which you never mentioned to Mr. Lewis. I think it is a matter you ought to explain, and give us certainly all the information you can about it. You received 200 sovereigns ? — Yes.

• 1040.

  Of those 200 sovereigns, you gave 50 to Mr. Coleman ? — Yes.

• 1041.

  And those 50 you knew, of course, he was going to employ for purposes not legitimate ? — I did.

• 1042.

  Now those 200 sovereigns you never mentioned to Mr. George Lewis, though the occasion did occur on which perhaps it would have been desirable you should do so ? — Yes.

• 1043.

  Now that leaves in one’s mind a very strong impression that the other 150 sovereigns were to be employed in the same way as the 50 that you gave to Mr. Coleman, now, was not that so ? — I think it was.

• 1044.

  When you got the 200 sovereigns in that way, did it not strike you it was the intention that that money should be employed in the way in which it was eventually employed ? — Yes ; there was nothing said at the time.

• 1045.

  Of course not, but was not that what you understood ? — I did not understand anything; conversation was avoided. You must draw that inference which the circumstances will give you.

• 1046.

  What is your idea, I suppose you have no doubt at all that there was at least 150L required to pay the things which Coleman promised should be paid ? — I have not.

• 1047.

  Of course, I wish you really, in your own interest, to answer the questions. Having said nothing about the 200 sovereigns, persons might be inclined to draw the inference, I don*t, that you kept the 1502. for yourself. I am sure you did not ? — No.

• 1048.

  That being so, clearly you must have intended to apply it to some purpose or another. It was, of course, the case, was it not, that it was intended to apply it to the things which Coleman promised should be paid ? — It was. At that time I did not know what they would be.

• 1049.

  There is one question I should like you to answer from your experience. What do you think is the effect of the ballot ? Do you think it has tended to diminish corruption in a place like this ? — I think not ; I think on the contrary.

• 1050.

  You think it tends to increase it ? — I think so.

• 1051.

  I do not know whether you have thought over the subject at all, or whether it has struck you during the last election, in which way secrecy of voting tends to increase expense ? — Simply that we knew before exactly whether a voter did carry out his promise and intention or not, but now we do not, and therefore the voters, some of them, receive from both parties. There is no doubt about that, but I do not think that that goes on to a great extent I will not impute that to the constituency here. I do not think it goes on to a very great extent here, but it gives the opportunity of doing so ; and therefore, I think, the ballot is bad. From my own experience, I much prefer the other mode of voting.

• 1052.

  Did it not strike you that, not knowing how a voter was going to vote, it became necessary, if I may so express it, to expend more money broadcast so as to influence as large a number as possible. Is that what occurred to your mind at the last election ? — No, I don’t exactly know that it did.

• 1053.

  So far as you know from your experience of Sandwich, the ballot has not had the effect of checking corruption ? — I think not I don’t consider that we have been very corrupt at Sandwich — not on the whole. Years ago it was customary, before the Reform Bill, that every freeman when he went to the booth should receive a pound. That was the old system, and to a certain extent, of course, that has never been eradicated from their minds. Elections have become so pure now. I don’t mean to say that it operates at present, but that was the old system. There used to be a dinner, which was given by the member after the result had been announced, and you either had your dinner or you had your pound, if you chose to demand it, in the hall, when you went to tender your vote. That was the old system.

• 1054.

  (Mr. Turner.) The whole class of voters, not only freemen ? — There were none but freemen at that time. There was only one class and they were freemen. Then came the Reform Bill and introduced the householder — the 10L. qualification.

• 1055.

  (Mr. Holl.) Do you think that the freemen expect that now ? — No, I do not know that they do, but there are some of them still extant Here is a very curious old document (handing same), if you like to look at it ; it is the poll which was taken in the year 1800 ; it is quite a curiosity.

• 1056.

  (Mr. Jeune.) You have mentioned pure elections. Was 1874 a pure election as far as you know ? — Yes, the general election.

• 1057.

  You took part in that, did you not ? — Yes, I did.

• 1058.

  (Mr. Holl.) Were the expenses of that election great ? — No, the expenses have been filed.

• 1059.

  We have not had them at present, but we are to have them from Mr. Surrage. Were the expenses at Sandwich as large as at Deal, do you think ? — Yes, I should think so, quite.

• 1060.

  (Mr. Turner.) What are you ? — A farmer.

• 1061.

  At Sandwich ? — Yes.

• 1062.

  Besides being a farmer, you are in the habit of taking great interest in politics at Sandwich ? — I have on this occasion.

• 1064.

  We have heard from him that you had a sum of 40L handed to you to engage public-houses ? — Quite right.

• 1065.

  Is that true ? — Yes.