Testimonies

Testimonies

• 975.

  Why should you call them personal expenses, to prevent their passing through the agent for election expenses P-I simply wished to make the account as simple as possible.

• 976.

  That is not the reason you gave. You say, “I called them personal expenses to prevent their passing through the agent for election expenses.” Why should you wish to prevent their passing through him if they were legitimate ? — Well, they were rather large certainly.

• 977.

  Was not the real fact that you knew that these were not legitimate expenses, and that therefore they were expenses which it would be dangerous to pass through the election agent’s hands ? — I cannot admit that, for I do not think they were illegitimate at all. There was a great deal of expense incurred for the staff, — and so on.

• 978.

  How can you explain the fact that you say you called them personal expenses to prevent their passing through the agent for election expenses ? Why should you do that if they were legitimate expenses ? — Well, I furnished him with the account. I wanted to show exactly what they were.

• 979.

  I am not saying what you furnished to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis, but why should you call them personal expenses to prevent their going through the agent for election expenses ? I see you go on to say, “The greater part was incurred on the day of the election” ? — The largest part of this was for a dinner we had after the election, in fact, to the staff itself. No portion of these expenses were for meat and drink given to voters for the purpose of corrupting and influencing their votes. It was, in fact, expense incurred by the staff engaged that day, and friends of Sir Julian coming in from a distance, and so on, who went in and had refreshments.

• 980.

  Now with regard to the claims that have been made upon you, have we before us every claim that has been made upon you ? — Yes.

• 981.

  In writing ? — Yes.

• 982.

  Are there any other claims whatever that have been made upon you, other than those you mentioned which Coleman will give us the details of ? — No, I mentioned them all yesterday to you.

• 983.

  Are you aware of any other corrupt practices or illegal payments whatsoever beyond those which you have told us ? — No, I am not aware of any. I don’t recollect any.

• 984.

  I am excepting, of course, those you told us. The 50L you say you gave to Coleman to pay away to different voters, and the sums you intended to pay to Coleman in respect of the promises he had made to other persons ? — Certainly.

• 985.

  Beyond that, you are not aware of any other corrupt practices or illegal expenses ? — No.

• 986.

  Now there was a list of watchers which you were going to hand in to us ? — A list of watchers is contained in the vouchers of the account handed in, and has been published ; but yesterday you wished me to analyse them, to ascertain how many of those were voters and how many non-voters. You will &id that information at the bottom (handing in a paper to the Commissioners),

• 987.

  I see there were 12 voters and 4 non-voters ? — Yes.

• 988.

  I think they were paid a pound a-piece ? — Yes.

• 989.

  That was for watching on the night before the election ? — Yes.

• 990.

  In what sort of position are these 12 who are voters; what class of men are they; Ford, Quested, Grey, Gambrill, Easter, Revel, Stokes, Spicer, Cook, Bailey, White, and Booth ? — Ford is a bricklayer.

• 991.

  Are they all of them labourers ? — They are all householders, I believe ; I think so.

• 992.

  Yes, householders, but are they men of what I may call the labouring class and artisans ? — Yes; they are in tolerable positions.

• 993.

  Who were the persons they were set to watch ? — They were our own friends ; parties who had promised their votes to us, and we were afraid they would be approached and tampered with, and we wished to protect them.

• 994.

  What is the good of having a man outside another man’s house watching all night ? They would not be likely to go in the middle of the night ? — Yes, they would; they were wandering about all night, and, of course, it was a man in a humble position in life who was likely, perhaps, to have a call in the middle of the night, or late at night, simply to get him away from his house, or, in fact, to tamper with him and bribe him.

• 995.

  Who were the 16 persons who were to be watched ? — I cannot give you their names.

• 996.

  It was 16 persons who were to be watched, I suppose ? — Sixteen watchers, one or two men together. They were walking about the town; not each man to have a separate duty, but they were together, one or two in one street, and some in another, and so on. They were to protect our own voters from being approached.

• 997.

  What use could two or three men be walking up and down this or that street all night ? — A very great deal. It would deter men from calling upon our voters for the purpose of tampering with them, and getting our men over to their side.

• 998.

  They could not prevent anybody from calling if they chose ? — They could not prevent it, but they would not do it when they saw that they were watched. It was to have a deterrent effect

• 999.

  Has this been a usual thing in Sandwich ; have you known it before ? — I have known it, and even known ourselves, the gentlemen of the committee, to go out and watch a (Articular street to take care and watch that the houses of some of the voters were not approached during the night. It has been a common thing, but not to this extent. I never recollect having 16 watchers before, but it was considered necessary on this occasion, I think it is a common thing.

• 1000.

  You gave the men a pound a-piece ? — Yes ; they were parties we knew to be firm friends, those 16 men whose names are mentioned there.

• 1001.

  Did you select those 16 men ? — No, I had nothing to do with that.

• 1002.

  Who did select them ? — They were selected by the committee, I think. Mr. Coleman was there at the time, and their names were given into me afterwards and adopted. They were men who had promised their Totes, and could be thoroughly depended upon, who were selected for a certain duty, and that was for the protection of our friends.

• 1003.

  And for the receipt of one pound each ? — They had one pound each.

• 1004.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Did you hear that any attempt had been made by the other side to get at any of your voters ? — It was said so. I was told so. I snow nothing of these things. Really, my services were devoted more especially to the committee room, and so on. If anything was brought to me afterwards, of course I heard it, and so on.