Testimonies

Foord, John Ross | Day 18

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 19133.

  You think the large proportion will be applicable to party expenses ? — Yes.

• 19134.

  Out of that £2400, how much would you say was applicable to municipal matters ? — In the average proportion, rather more than a third and not quite a half.

• 19135.

  There would be £1400 at least applicable to parliamentary expenses ? — Yes.

• 19136.

  How would you apportion that, as far as you can judge now, between the three elections ? — In the same way again, as you know election expenses have increased.

• 19137.

  Cannot you recollect a little more accurately what actually was paid by you on account of Sir Julian Goldsmid in respect of the election of 1880 out of that £1400 ? — I think the £700 is pretty nearly right.

• 19138.

  (Mr. Jeune.) As a fact, what was the sum that you spent for Sir Julian Goldsmid in the spring of this year ? — You must put a little more than the £700. You might put £100 more, and let the rest go over the other elections.

• 19139.

  I do not want you to guess, but l want you to tell us what was the fact in regard to that ? — I think you may take it at £800.

• 19140.

  I do not want to take it at anything. l want to know what it really was ? — Then I will say that it was less than £800, but I cannot tell you exactly.

• 19141.

  Less than £800 in regard to the 1880 election ? — Yes.

• 19142.

  You have got an account of it, I suppose ? — If it is a Rochester inquiry I am prepared to show every account.

• 19143.

  That is not it. I wanted to know the total, and the account would give the total with accuracy ? — I will not do it. I decline to show the account.

• 19144.

  Give me the total ? — I assure you I cannot give it.

• 19145.

  Give it to me within £100 ? — I say it is less than £800.

• 19146.

  Are you sure it was not more than £800 ? — Yes, I am prepared to say it was not more than £800.

• 19147.

  Are you sure that £800 is the outside of the money paid in respect of the 1880 election ? — Yes, that is the outside.

• 19148.

  And the rest would be applicable to the previous elections ? — Yes.

• 19149.

  I take it from what you have said you have been repaid this £800 as well as the other money ? — Yes.

• 19150.

  I understand you to say £800 is the outside of the money paid in respect of the 1880 election ? — Yes, it is, I assure you. I will swear to it.

• 19151.

  (Mr. Holl.) You were requested to send down some money to Sir Julian Goldsmid in connexion with the Sandwich election ? — Yes.

• 19152.

  Tell us exactly, and as accurately as you can recollect, what took place in regard to that matter ? — It was upon Thursday, the 13th of May, and I was at a meeting of the directors of the Rochester Gas Company, and a message came to me from my brother that he would like to see me at the office as soon as I could conveniently go. I stayed a very little while, because we were then getting towards the end of our business, and then I went to our office, and there I saw Mr Belsey. Mr Belsey said that Sir Julian Goldsmid wanted us to send down £1200, or £1500, and that it must go there before Saturday, as there were a lot of expenses to be paid. My brother Charles was there, and I said, “Well, if Sir Julian Goldsmid wants it, we must send it down to him.” Then, in course of conversation with Mr Belsey and my brother Charles, there was a question as to how it should be sent, and we all considered it should be sent down in gold. I have the management of our banking accounts, and, knowing the state of those accounts, I said, “We must have it from the London Joint Stock Bank.“ I make it part of my practice every Saturday to see what the balances are at the different bankers; what probabilities there are of money coming in, and what probabilities there are of money being paid out, and also where, if any money is wanted, it is desirable it should come from. I should say, as a rule, with regard to the London Joint Stock Bank, our drawings from that bank are very moderate indeed, and the principal part of our drawings, in connexion with our business transactions are from the London and County Bank at Rochester. I knew the state of the account at the London Joint Stock Bank, and I also knew there was no probability of any money being required to be drawn from that bank. I also knew the state of the account at the London and County Bank at Rochester, and I knew there would be considerable drawings continuously from there, and therefore I knew it would be much better for us to draw the money from the London Joint Stock Bank than from the London and County Bank at Rochester. I said to my brother Charles, “You will have to go up to London and get the money,” and he said, “Very well, I can do that,” and I said, “There is another thing, as this money is wanted down before Saturday, you will have to go up this afternoon,” and he said, “I will go up and do it,” and he went up. I drew a cheque upon the London Joint Stock Bank for £1200, and he went up and brought the money down. That made £1200 out of the £1500, and the other £300 came from money in the house. Generally speaking, we have a considerable sum of money in the house ready for wages and other purposes, but mostly for wages, and we took the money from that. I did not see my brother go off, but I know that he went off to Sandwich and came back again.

• 19153.

  (Mr. Turner.) He went upon the Friday ? — Yes. I think I have stated as nearly as I can recollect all the particulars, and I am prepared to answer any questions.

• 19154.

  (Mr. Holl.) What was the state of the account at the London and County Bank at Rochester ? — Of course, I do not speak to a few pounds, but when I was talking about the state of the account I made out that the balance was £2180, with a continual likelihood of money being required from it, because my brother Charles and my brother William both draw upon that account and pay all manner of things – merchants’ accounts, and so on – without saying anything to me about it, and I am obliged to keep a balance there of £1500 as a rule. If they draw cheques up to a couple of hundred pounds they do not say anything about it, but if they are going to draw for more they would say, “I am going to draw a cheque to pay this merchant or that merchant £500; how does the account stand?” and I say so and so, and I would arrange if I find that the money is not coming in to take it from our deposit account which we have at both banks. Knowing the state of the account to be £2180 at the London and County Bank at Rochester, I came to the conclusion that if I drew £1200 out of that it would leave us with such a balance as we have never had before. I also knew that there was £1690 at the London Joint Stock Bank, and I did not know of any likelihood of drawing a single farthing from that, and therefore I came to the conclusion that the better way would be to draw it from the London Joint Stock Bank than to draw it from the London and County Bank at Rochester.

• 19155.

  You say that your two brothers are in the habit of drawing cheques to the extent of £200 ? — No, they draw cheques for what they like.

• 19156.

  Without consulting you ? — Yes.

• 19157.

  Upon which account are they in the habit of drawing for paying merchants’ accounts, and so on ? — The London and County Bank. I have roughly looked at it, and I see that our London and County Bank drawings occupy, from the 1st January to the present time, about 40 double pages, whereas the London Joint Stock Bank there are only occupied two double pages; so that you may suppose that the drawings from the London Joint Stock Bank are very small.

• 19158.

  What was the amount of the deposit account at the Rochester Bank at that time ? — £1000 and £2000 at the London Joint Stock Bank; but I always keep exchequer bills ready. With a large business like ours we are always obliged to pay cash, and we are always ready to meet any demands, and that is one of the reasons for keeping money in the house. If any difficulty arises I like to have the money there to meet it.

• 19159.

  What would be, taking the average, about the amount of drawings from the Rochester Bank per week for wages and merchants’ accounts ? — I do not know whether you are anything like the Spanish Inquisition that this is a complete inquiry into a man’s private business.

• 19160.

  I do not think it is inquisitorial at all: you can easily see the reason of the question ? — I can hardly see the reason of the question, but at the same time I will answer it.

• 19161.

  What about would, taking the average, the amount of drawings be from the Rochester Bank per week for wages and merchants’ accounts ? — It is almost impossible to tell. Is there not any other way of getting at it without disclosing what our business is, because that is what it comes to.

• 19162.

  What is the amount of wages you pay per week ? — Wages, in round numbers, at the present time, about £400. Years ago our wages used to be £1000 a week, and rather more, but we are getting older and do not care for so much work.