Testimonies

Belsey, Francis Flint | Day 16

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 18385.

  Did carrying out Sir Julian’s wishes involve going to London ? — I daresay it did. I daresay they would have to go to their bankers in London to get it. I took the message, and there my duty ceased, and I did not trouble my head further.

• 18386.

  Did you know that afternoon that Mr Foord would have to go up to London and come down to Rochester again, for the purpose of getting the money ? — I cannot say I knew it, but I thought very probably he might. I did not know the arrangement that he had made, because of course he might have drawn up upon the London and County bank. I took the message, and left them to make the arrangements.

• 18387.

  Did you write to Sir Julian Goldsmid afterwards ? — I wrote him, I think, the same night, stating that I had seen the Messrs Foord, and I gave the train by which they would get down in the morning, and I sent that letter to Sir Julian Goldsmid the same night.

• 18388.

  That is to say, that they would get down upon the Friday ? — Yes. I did not see Mr Foord, but I believe he went upon the Friday, and took the money down.

• 18389.

  You knew that he was not going upon the Thursday ? — Yes, because he could not manage it. I took from them the train that Mr Foord would go down by upon the Friday morning. They determined that Mr Foord should go down upon the Friday morning to Sandwich with the money, but what arrangements they might make as to getting it, I left entirely to them. In writing to Sir Julian Goldsmid, all I wanted to do was to give the train that Mr Foord would come down by, the next day.

• 18390.

  Sir Julian Goldsmid did not give you any reason to understand that he wished to have the money before Friday, or even before Saturday ? — No. I simply took it from him that he wanted it promptly, that Mr Edwards wanted it immediately, and I do not think there was anything said about Friday or Saturday.

• 18391.

  You understood within the term “immediately,” that it might mean Friday or Saturday ? — Yes, that is what I understood.

• 18392.

  (Mr. Holl.) Have you any copy of the letter that you sent to Sir Julian Goldsmid ? — No, I have not a copy of it. I had almost forgotten that I had written, but I remember the circumstance now. I wrote the same night stating that I had seen Messrs Foord, and they would carry out his wishes, and that Mr Foord would arrive by such and such a train in the morning.

• 18393.

  Did you suggest that they should get the money from London ? — No, I left that entirely to them. I knew nothing about their banking account. I merely took the message and left it to them to make their own arrangements as to how they would do it, and where they would draw the money from.

• 18394.

  You have stated that Sir Julian Goldsmid complained to you of the lavish expenditure ? — Yes. He said that they were going into a lavish expenditure in the putting up of flags, and so on.

• 18395.

  What is it he said about that ? — He said that it seemed a very expensive place, and they seemed to have gone on in a very lavish way in the putting up of flags, and that they were putting up an enormous flagpole. But he had determined to fight, and inasmuch as it was done, it could not be helped. That is what I gathered from his conversation, and I understood that this money was wanted for the payment of this sort of work, and the lavish way of carrying it out.

• 18396.

  Do you say that he seemed annoyed at it; did he say anything ? — He did not seem to like the place, and, I think if he had known all he found out by the time I got there, he would not have gone to the place. That is the impression I gathered from what he said.

• 18397.

  (Mr. Jeune.) I think you said that you know nothing about money affairs in connection with Rochester ? — No, personally I have avoided all connection with money matters. In fact I am sorry that I ever took the message. I am a strong partizan, but I would never have anything to do with the financial part of it.

• 18398.

  Do you manage the elections at Rochester in the sense of control ? — No, I have conferred a great deal as to the organisation of the party and general working of the election, but I have had nothing to do in regard to financial matters, and I could not tell you within £500 or £1000 really what is spent in the place, and therefore I could not possibly answer any questions upon that subject.

• 18399.

  Did you ever organise the expenditure of money ? — No, I have never had anything to do with it. My work has been chiefly in the organisation of canvassings, meetings, and speaking, but I have never had anything to do with cabs, messengers, or anything of that sort.

• 18400.

  (Mr. Holl.) I want to set exactly your understanding – did you understand that this money was to pay for expenses that you have mentioned that Sir Julian Goldsmid spoke of as being lavish, or did you understand that it was wanted for any more illegitimate purposes ? — No, I understood it was wanted for this sort of lavish election expenditure. I took it as its being wanted for this lavish part of the election expenses that exists in Kentish boroughs.

• 18401.

  Did you understand that it was wanted at all for bribery ? — I do not know how far this expenditure might influence votes, but I did not understand that it was wanted for anything like the bribery I have been reading about in the papers, in fact, I had no idea of it.

• 18402.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Were you surprised at being asked by Sir Julian Goldsmid to ask Messrs Foord of Rochester to take £1500 to Sandwich ? — No, I was not, because I knew they were old friends, and I knew that they had frequently made arrangements for him in Rochester in the way of public subscriptions and charitable expenses. I knew that they were people who would do it in a moment if they were asked. I knew their feelings towards him were such that they would do it in a minute. It did not strike me as being at all peculiar, and I thought it a very natural way of getting it.

• 18403.

  The effect was that 1500 sovereigns from the bank were put into the hands of Mr Emmerson ol Sandwich, and absolutely there was no trace which anybody could find of how that money came. Did that strike you at all ? — No, because it was going to his own parliamentary agent at his request and I left all that between him and his agent. If it had been going to some unauthorised irresponsible agent, for instance, some man upon the beach, I should have taken quite a different view, and I should have taken a very different course, but as it was going to Mr Emmerson of Sandwich, I thought it was in the ordinary way of the election. If I had had a doubt at the moment about it, the fact of its going to Mr Emmerson the agent would have solved it, and I should have said to myself that it was a straight payment and have given myself no trouble about it, except as a friend, to carry the message for him.

• 18404.

  Knowing, as you do now, that the whole, or nearly the whole of that money was immediately spent in direct bribery, does it not strike you as a very imprudent thing to have had the money sent down in that way ? — Of course after events would alter one’s opinion. I do not quite catch your meaning I think, and I am not experienced in financial arrangements at elections. As a payment to the election agent of Sir Julian Goldsmid, and knowing what I know of the ordinary course at elections in our county it did not strike me as at all an unusual thing.

• 18405.

  It did not ? — No, because £2000 or £3000 is considered as a mere nothing in most of the borough elections. In fact, I think, as I mentioned to Sir Julian, if he wanted to win the seat by bribery it would cost him £10,000. I took it as being wanted for the payment of what you may call lavish expenditure at the election.