Hulke, Frederick Thomas | Day 21
Gave £5 to Ralph for services rendered and 2 sovereigns to George Jenner. He asked Simmons to advance him some money and was not then entirely truthful as to how it was spent. Claiming it was to repair damage to a trap and so on. He was reluctant to say he had given money to Ralph because he had supported the Liberals in previous elections and had now switched sides.
Witness Type: Briber
Party: Conservative
Witness Testimony:
- 20370.
Was that all the money ? — Yes, that was all the money.
- 20371.
That was all the money you expended or received ? — Yes, expended or received. I changed a cheque for Mr. Thomas on one occasion.
- 20372.
When Mr. Simmons talks about your having paid for some champagne, do I understand you to say that that is a mistake of his ? — Yes, it is a mistake of his. It was simply because I did not want him to know how this money was expended, and therefore at the time I said, “Put it down to Petty Cash, or anything you like,” telling him various little expenses that I was out of pocket.
- 20373.
I suppose what you are saying now applies to the £5, and not to the £2 ? — Yes.
- 20374.
Why were you so anxious that Mr. Simmons, one of your own party, if I may so speak, should not know that you were going to give this £5 to Mr. Alderman Ralph ? — It might probably be in this way, that Mr. Ralph originally was upon the other side, that is years ago, and he might not like to have it known that he was put down as receiving anything for his services. I imagine that was what was passing through my mind.
- 20375.
He had been upon the other side, and you thought he would not like it to be known that he had been rendering services ? — Yes, that he had been rendering services openly.
- 20376.
What you mean, I suppose, is you thought he would not like it to be known that he was receiving any remuneration for doing it ? — Yes, that he had received anything.
- 20377.
You see Alderman Ralph was, in point of fact, having formerly been upon the other side, taking remuneration for the services he rendered ? — He rendered these services at lots of meetings for the last year or two. He had separated himself from his own party, and there was no intention on his part to receive anything, and no desire on my part to give him anything.
- 20378.
You say that he separated himself from his own party long antecedent to this election ? — Yes.
- 20379.
A year or two ? — Yes.
- 20380.
Are you sure of that ? — I should not like to be positive, because I do not know the ins and outs of the elections sufficiently.
- 20381.
Are you able to say, or not, whether he had to your knowledge separated himself from the Liberal party for any considerable time previous to the general election ? — Yes, that I will swear positively.
- 20382.
Prior to the general election, you are positive about that ? — Yes, I am positive about it. I think you will find that he took no part in the 1874 election.
- 20383.
I understand you to say you are not able to state more specifically the precise character of the services that he rendered, beyond the fact that he attended meetings, and generally supported your cause.
- 20384.
(Mr. Jeune.) When did you pay Mr. Jenner this £2 ? — I paid Mr. Jenner £2 some three or four weeks at least before the election. I cannot be positive, but the occasion was soon after the general election — the walk-over. I employed Jenner to go about and find out the feelings and views of the watermen in Walmer, and about another week or ten days after that I gave him a second sovereign and sent him round again.
- 20385.
You say about three weeks after the walk-over you employed Jenner ? — It was before that.
- 20386.
How long was it after the general election that you employed him ? — I could not be positive, but it was soon after.
- 20387.
A fortnight ? — I should think it would be, quite.
- 20388.
And then you paid him a week after that ? — Yes, somewhere thereabouts.
- 20389.
The general election was the 4th April, and that brings you extremely cIose to the contested election ? — You must bear in mind that there was not much time between the two.
- 20390.
That is what I mean. The payment to him was a little close upon the contested election ? — It had nothing to do with his views, I can assure you.
- 20391.
I am not asking you that. You paid him this £2 out of your own pocket ? — Yes.
- 20392.
Without any communication with anybody else ? — Yes, without any communication with anybody else at all.
- 20393.
When did you pay Mr. Ralph the £5 ? — I paid him that upon the day of the election.
- 20394.
Had you promised him anything before ? — No, nothing. I am positive of that.
- 20395.
Had you asked him to perform services for your party ? — No, I had not.
- 20396.
How came you to pay Mr. Ralph £5 ? Did he ask you for it ? — Yes, he asked me for it.
- 20397.
That was upon the morning of the election ? — That was upon the day of the election, but it was not in the morning; it was more in the afternoon,
- 20398.
What did he come and say to you ? — He met me casually. He was in a very excited state, and he told me that he was money out of pocket, and he thought that for the services he had rendered he should be remunerated. I then said to him, “I will mention it to Mr. Hughes, but it was understood that they were to put you down as a paid canvasser,” and he said, “I will not go down as a paid canvasser; I do not like to do that, but cannot you give me a little remuneration yourself, doctor?” That is the way it came about.
- 20399.
And you then gave him £5 ? — Yes.