Testimonies

Belsey, Francis Flint | Day 16

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 18355.

  Are you sure of that, or did it come from you ? — I could not say from whom it came first; I rather think from Sir Julian Goldsmid, but I would not be certain. In conversation it was suggested that I should see Mr Foord in order most quickly to get the money, and upon that suggestion I saw Messrs Foord for him.

• 18356.

  Did it at all occur to you to suggest to Sir Julian Goldsmid that a telegram to London would have brought him any quantity of money within a few hours ? — It did not occur to me that a telegram would do.

• 18357.

  Did it not occur to you that a telegram to London to send a cheque book would have brought a cheque book within a few hours ? — No.

• 18358.

  You know that Sir Julian Goldsmid is a very wealthy man indeed ? — Yes,

• 18359.

  Did it not strike you that what I say a telegram to London would have been the more natural way ? — No, it did not strike me as the most simple and most natural way I am bound to say. I did not think of any other way which looked prompt.

• 18360.

  That you should go to Rochester and come back the next day to bring back money ? — Yes.

• 18361.

  Did he know you were going upon the Thursday morning and not upon the Wednesday evening ? — Yes, he knew I was going upon the Thursday morning.

• 18362.

  You telegraphed first of all to Mr Foord ? — Yes, from Canterbury.

• 18363.

  To be ready to meet you ? — Yes.

• 18364.

  And you went to his office ? — Yes.

• 18365.

  And you saw there both the Mr Foord’s ? — Yes.

• 18366.

  What did you tell them to do ? — I just gave them Sir Julian Goldsmid’s message that he wished £1500 to be sent, and would they oblige him by sending promptly down £1500 for the purposes of his election, and take it to his agent, Mr Emmerson, at Sandwich. Sir Julian Goldsmid gave me the name of his agent upon a slip of paper, and I took that slip of paper to Messrs Foord and asked them to do it, and they raised no difficulty, but said they would be happy to do it, and I left them to carry out the arrangement.

• 18367.

  Sir Julian Goldsmid gave you that piece of paper with Mr Emmerson’s name, of Sandwich, upon it ? — Yes, in order that I should make no mistake in the name of the agent. I did not know him personally. He gave me his name as the person to whom the money was to be paid, and I believed he was the agent for parliamentary expenses.

• 18368.

  What was the sum mentioned that Messrs Foord should send ? — From £1200 to £1600 I took it, as the sum he wished.

• 18369.

  Did you hear any discussion between Messrs Foord, or between Messrs Foord and you, as to how the money was to be paid or sent ? — No; I think there was no discussion at all. They knew the purpose for which it was wanted and they at once took it that it was to be sent in gold. Certainly nothing was said about notes, but I do not think the question was discussed. It went without question that gold was the form that it would be the most convenient to send it in, and that was the reason that Mr Charles Foord took it down. They are always paying wages in large amounts, and they always draw their cheques for gold.

• 18370.

  You telegraphed to Mr Foord to meet you at the station, I think ? — No, not at the station. I merely telegraphed for Mr Charles Foord to be in the way. Mr Charles Foord is very frequently away from the office, though the other Mr Foord is always there, and I thought, as it was a matter of importance, the two brothers would naturally wish to decide upon it, and I telegraphed to Mr Charles Foord to be in the way when I returned as I had a message that I wished him to receive.

• 18371.

  From where did you send that telegram ? — From Canterbury. We were very early from Deal. I had to get away for an important engagement upon the Thursday, and the telegraph offices were not open when I left Deal, and I telegraphed when I reached Canterbury.

• 18372.

  When did you leave Deal ? — A little after 8 in the morning.

• 18373.

  Why did you not telegraph from Deal ? — For the simple reason that I had not the time and did not go near the office. It did not occur to me to telegraph from Deal, and I said I would rather wire when I got to Canterbury. I had no thought of telegraphing from Deal, and in fact it was so early that it would have been very inconvenient to do so.

• 18374.

  You did not leave till after 8, and the telegraph offices are open at 8 ? — I have given you the truthful reason; it did not occur to me to telegraph from Deal. I thought Canterbury would suit as well, and that is the reason I did it. There were about 20 minutes between the trains which gave time to wire from Canterbury. In fact I am not certain that I did not arrange about telegraphing at the station.

• 18375.

  Where were you staying at Deal ? — With Sir Julian Goldsmid, at his house next to Mr Crompton Roberts.

• 18376.

  You know, do you not, that you pass the telegraph office within a few yards on your way to the railway station ? — No, I do not know it.

• 18377.

  You have told us your reason. Do you say that there was no other reason for your telegraphing from Canterbury ? — No, there was not.

• 18378.

  You said nothing about taking the money in gold ? — No, I think it went without question. I do not think there was any discussion about that.

• 18379.

  You told them what the money was for ? — Yes. I said it was evidently an expensive place, and this was for immediate payment in connection with the election ;that is what I told them, and they used their own discretion as to the form in which they sent it, and they chose gold naturally.

• 18380.

  Did you know anything about one of the Mr Foord’s going up to London and getting the cheque cashed ? — No, I left them to make arrangements.

• 18381.

  You heard no discussion between them as to how it was to be carried out ? — No, I have no recollection of it. I know that they were discussing how they could do it most promptly, and they were consulting timetables. I daresay going up to London might have been part of their consultation.

• 18382.

  Did you know that one of the Mr Foord’s was going to travel to London and back again to get the money ? — I fancy that was the arrangement they made that day, but I did not concern myself much with it, because I left them to make the arrangements.

• 18383.

  Did you hear any discussion between them, or did you simply give the message and go away ? — I merely gave the message and left them to make the arrangements. They were in consultation, I believe, some time after I went away.

• 18384.

  That of course you would not know ? — No, but I do not remember any conversation. I know they were consulting the timetables for the purpose of carrying out Sir Julian Goldsmid’s wishes.