Epps, William Edward | Day 13
Received £6 – £3 which was for his father, Thomas Epps from George Lock, plus £5 from a Mr Baker although he wasn’t sure of the name. Presumed to be Henry Minter Baker in Dover who was manager of the Dickenson’s wholesale grocery stores mentioned in the testimony.
He was called to the earlier Petition trial and gave different answers saying he hadn’t received any money or paid any money to anyone. Admitted that George Hooper and told him to keep quiet about the money. Listed as a briber but the only money he handed out was the £3 he had received from Mr Lock for his father. Accounts differ as to what his father received as he was ill in hospital at the time and told his son to keep some of the money to pay for the ‘necessaries’ he needed.
Witness Type: Bribee, Briber, Freeman, Petition witness
Party: Conservative
Witness Testimony:
- 15680.
And you received 3L. for your father ? — Yes.
- 15681.
And you say also you did not actually give it to him ; you told him of it and he told you to lay it out in private necessaries for him ? — Yes, he did.
- 15682.
Who suggested to you at the trial to keep this back and tell a falsehood about it ? — Mr. Lock.
- 15683.
You say Mr. Look told you ? — Yes.
- 15684.
Is that Mr. George Lock ? — Yes.
- 15685.
Did you speak to anybody else about it at all ? — No, I do not remember that I did.
- 15686.
Are you sure of that ? — Yes, quite positive.
- 15687.
Is there anybody else that saw you as to your being called as a witness ? — No, I think not.
- 15688.
Just try and see whether you cannot remember that there was somebody else who spoke to you about the money and your being called as a witness ? — I do not remember anyone else.
- 15689.
Was your evidence taken at all by anyone ? — No.
- 15690.
Did any solicitor or solicitor’s clerk come to enquire of you ? — No, not to my knowledge.
- 15691.
You must know ? — No, no one came to me to ask me whether I received anything.
- 15692.
Are you sure that no solicitor or solicitor’s clerk came to you to ask you whether you received anything, and what testimony you could give ? — No, none.
- 15693.
Did you speak to anybody at all except Mr. George Lock in respect to this matter ? — I hardly understand you.
- 15694.
Do you mean to tell us that you did not either see or speak to anyone at all, except Mr. George Lock, with respect to this matter of your having received money for your vote ? — No, I do not think I did, I do not remember anything more.
- 15695.
You must remember ? — If I did I would tell you.
- 15696.
You do not come forward at a trial to state that which is not true often. You must remember how it happened that you came forward in this way to swear false at the trial of the election petition ? — Mr. Lock asked me not to name it.
- 15697.
Did anybody else speak to you about it at all ? — I do not think they did. I do not remember that they did.
- 15698.
It is hardly possible that you should forget it if it happened. Cannot you remember whether anybody else spoke to you upon this subject at all ? — I cannot remember that anyone else said anything to me about it
- 15699.
You must remember it ; it is not a thing that you could forget, and it is a serious thing being asked to come forward at the trial to deny taking money when you knew that you had been taking it from two parties for yourself, and that you were taking 3L. for your father. You really must remember whether you had any conversation with anybody else about it ? — I am not certain, but I fancy now I come to call it over in my mind that Mr. Hooper spoke to me about it.
- 15700.
What is his Christian name ? — George Hooper.
- 15701.
Do you remember what he said to you ? — I would not be quite positive ; it is sometime back.
- 15702.
What do you think he said ? — I do not know. I really cannot say what he did say, but I remember that I spoke to him about it. I really cannot remember the words.
- 15703.
Did he suggest to you to conceal the fact of your having received any money ? — I would not say, and I would not like to say, if I were not quite certain.
- 15704.
Cannot you be quite certain ? — No.
- 15705.
Do you mean that you cannot remember what he said ? I do not mean the precise words, but the substance of what he asked you to do ? — I do not think he asked me to do anything — it was merely talking about the election affairs. I do not think he asked me to do anything.
- 15706.
I am speaking of the time when you knew you were likely to be, or had been, subpoenaed to give evidence at the trial of the election petition, and I ask you whether at that time you had any conversation with Mr. Hooper about it ? — I think I had a little conversation with him about it.
- 15707.
Just tell us, as near as you can recollect, what the substance of the conversation was ? — It was upon the election, but really I cannot say what.
- 15708.
Was it not upon your being subpoenaed as a witness ? — No, I think not.
- 15709.
Did you not tell him that you had been subpoenaed as a witness ? — I think he asked me if I had got a subpoena, and I told him yes.