Ramell, William Henry | Day 5

Born 1831. Brother of John Pettet Ramell. Made flags and raised a concern over the legality of making them. Names a lot of people he paid. Received £25 but claimed to be nearly £20 out of pocket. [Check]

Witness Type: Briber

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

  • 4734.

    There is Long, 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4735.

    Bayly, 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4736.

    Miss Curling, 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4737.

    And Matthews, 5L. ? — Yes.

  • 4738.

    Those are sums paid for materials, are they ? — No, for labour ; making.

  • 4739.

    Have you any account at all showing what they did for their money ? — No, none whatever.

  • 4740.

    Did each of them make exactly the same number ? — No.

  • 4741.

    Then why pay them 5L. each ? — Well, I gave them 5L.

  • 4742.

    Without any particulars of what they had done ? — None whatever.

  • 4743.

    There is Clements, 12. 10«., and again Clements, 4L., and you have no memoranda of what those people did ? — None.

  • 4744.

    Can you tell me the number of FLAGS any of these people made; Mr. Long and Mr. Bayly for instance ? — I cannot tell at all. If I had been a flag they would have had me. These FLAGS were made on my premises, and they came and fetched them, and I had no time whatever to take any memorandum of anything that went out. (Mr. Jeune.) You say people came and fetched them ; who came and fetched them ? — The watermen sent to me. (Mr. Jeune.) I am speaking now of the people you paid, not those who had FLAGS afterwards. Long, Bayly, Matthews, and Miss Curling, were paid 5L each, and you have had no memorandum .showing what they did, or the number of FLAGS they made, or anything ? — No. I think I can explain that, if you will allow me. (Mr. Jeune.) Then do so shortly ? — I had a great objection to paying people for their votes, bribery and corruption you know, a very great objection, and I knew these people had votes, and I gave them the job to make these FLAGS. (Mr. Jeune.) I understand ? — Well, I must give it to someone ; somebody must make all the FLAGS, and I might just as well give them the job as anyone else. (Mr. Jeune.) You had a great objection to paying anybody for their votes ? — Yes. (Mr. Jeune.) And you knew these people had votes ? — Yes. (Mr. Jeune.) And so you employed them to make the FLAGS ? —Yes. (Mr. Jeune.) And gave them 5L. each ? — Yes. (Mr. Jeune.) So you paid them for the FLAGS instead of paying them for their votes ? — Yes. I must pay somebody, and so I gave them the job. (Mr. Jeune.) And that is how you carried out your objection to paying anybody for their votes ? — Yes.

  • 4745.

    Was that the same with Clements ? — Yes.

  • 4746.

    And Long and Bayly ? — Yes, every one.

  • 4747.

    And Matthews ? — I must explain. Matthews did not make FLAGS, it was wooden stretchers to put the FLAGS on.

  • 4748.

    But you employed him on the same principle ? — On the same principle.

  • 4749.

    Then I see there is Mr. Pitcher, Boal, Smith, Williams, Noble, Buttress, Wilmhurst, Mose, Clements, Lambert, and Parsons ; all of them are paid the same ; are most of them voters ? — No, they are mostly women who came and wanted a job.

  • 4750.

    Then you paid men for labour 6L. 10s. ? — Yes.

  • 4751.

    Were they employed upon the same principle ? —Yes.

  • 4752.

    And with the same view ? — Yes.

  • 4753.

    Did you pay yourself 10L. on the same principle ? — I think you will find, gentlemen, when you come to look at the end, that I have not had anything.

  • 4754.

    But you charge 10L ? — Well, shall I get it, is the question.

  • 4755.

    Have you a vote ? — Yes, I have had one these 30 years.

  • 4756.

    (Mr. Jeune.) Now just tell me this, you selected these people because they were your friends ? — Yes.

  • 4757.

    Liberals, and friends of the Liberals ? — Yes, they lived close to me or a few doors away.

  • 4758.

    And you chose them because they were friends of the Liberal cause ? — Well, I believed it.

  • 4759.

    Did you say anything to any of them about voting for you ? — Yes ; that is, those five.

  • 4760.

    (Mr. Holl) The “five-pounders” ? — Yes.

  • 4761.

    (Mr. Jeune,) You said something to them about voting, did you ? — Yes, I had seen certain parties on the opposite side round the doorway, and of course I went to them and told them I could not give them anything for their vote, but I would give them employment equal to what they were promised on the other side. I knew within a little what they were promised on the other side.

  • 4762.

    (Mr. Holl.) If they would vote for your side ? — Yes, and I have reason to believe they did vote.

  • 4763.

    Tell us the names of those you told that to ? — Curling.