Testimonies

Testimonies

• 495.

  The “Green Posts” ? – William Fagg.

• 496.

  The “Forester’s Arms” ? – Edmund Bailey.

• 497.

  I may take it, I suppose, that all of these are voters ? – Yes.

• 498.

  And each of those houses has a coterie of voters in the habit of frequenting these various houses ? – Yes.

• 499.

  I suppose they might or might not be all Liberals ? – Yes, it is impossible to tell.

• 500.

  They would have a coterie of voters, and your object was to get as many of the voters who visited these houses to vote for the Liberal candidate ? – Yes.

• 501.

  Do you know of any other money being spent in any way illegally ? – Yes, I am coming to another sum in regard to which I desire to make a statement. I paid to Mr. Coleman 50L.

• 502.

  Apart from the 40L. ? – Yes, I gave him 50L in the same way for the expenses of the election, I handed it to him upon the Thursday or Friday. This sum was different, as far as I was concerned, from the sum of 40L., because as regards the 40L. I directed him particularly as to its appropriation, but with regard to the 50L. I gave Mr. Coleman no decided instructions of any kind, in fact he was to spend it, and apply it in the best way he could to secure the vote of those parties who had promised us. He stated to me that they could have what money they liked from the other side, and this money was given to him in order to secure those votes.

• 503.

  To prevent their going over ? – Yes. I told him that he must account for it, and he is prepared to hand in a list of how it was appropriated. I was desirous of mentioning that now, because you might say afterwards I had not mentioned it.

• 504.

  I quite appreciate it; that was given for the purpose of keeping the voters from straying, as Coleman thought they might, though I do not say they might, unless they had some payments made to them ? – Yes.

• 505.

  Coleman will give us a list of the moneys paid ? – Yes.

• 506.

  Is there any other money you at all know of yourself, directly or indirectly, that you know has been expended ? – No. I have reason to believe that there were promises made, but no money given.

• 507.

  By whom were these promises made ? – By Coleman in the same way, because when I made up the account of the expenses to send to Sir Julian Goldsmid I was told that money would be required to a considerable amount to pay to certain parties who had given their votes to us, but none has been paid, I believe nota sixpence of it.

• 508.

  Have you a list of the persons to whom Coleman made those promises ? – No,

• 509.

  I suppose Coleman will have ? – No doubt he knows it.

• 510.

  At the time he told you that he would want money to pay certain persons he must have had a list of them, or known who they were ? – No doubt he would know, but it was made up very quickly indeed ; Sir Julian Goldsmid returned to London upon the Wednesday, and upon the Thursday morning, or upon the Friday morning, I had a letter from him directing me to send all accounts to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis who had full power to act for him, and not to pay any money whatever. That was upon the Friday morning, and I immediately sent round to make up my accounts, and it was simply by calling parties in, Coleman amongst others, that I could do it, and I sent up my account that very night, which will show you how very rapidly it was got together, and upon information not altogether reliable.

• 511.

  You have no list I understand you to say of those persons to whom Coleman promised money ? – No.

• 512.

  You do not know who they were ? – No, but I believe he will be able to show it. I have here Sir Julian’s letter that he wrote at the time, he went immediately to Messrs. Lewis and Lewis and instructed them about the petition. Here are a few letters (producing the same) that I received, one from Sir Julian Goldsmid and the others from Messrs. Lewis and Lewis.

• 513.

  They seem to be letters asking for details of certain items in the accounts ? – Yes, and I furnished Messrs. Lewis and Lewis with all such details as they required.

• 514.

  Did Sir Julian Goldsmid know anything of these payments by Coleman ? – No, not at all.

• 515.

  I think you have told me already with regard to canvassers, messengers, clerks, and so forth ; you do not think there was any great excess at Sandwich ? – No, I do not think we employed so many as we have done on former occasions ; in fact that has always been the great outlay in our borough.

• 516.

  Has that been usual in your borough ? – Yes. I have never known bribery or anything of that kind to any extent ; but the great outlay is in messengers, FLAGS, and that kind of thing, that has been the great outlay in the borough.

• 517.

  You are speaking now of Sandwich ? – Yes.

• 518.

  And I gather from what you say, you do consider there has been an outlay in canvassers, messengers, and so on, more than was necessary for the legitimate purposes of the election ? – Yes, generally, I think so.

• 519.

  I mean the employment of persons in what we may call “colourable employment,” that is to say, the employment of more than was necessary for the legitimate work of the election ? – Yes.

• 520.

  How many messengers had you upon this occasion ? – You have, I think, before you a list of the messengers which will show exactly.

• 521.

  Do I understand from your experience of previous elections, that the voters, or a certain class of voters, look for this kind of employment, that they seek for it ? – Yes, a certain number seek it no doubt.

• 522.

  And I may take it from what you say, that you consider that the way they vote depends, on a great measure, whether they get such employment or not ? – A messenger simply receives half a guinea for the whole election, and a boy is only paid 5s. , so that that could not be a very great inducement. The way in which it is done is this, a man will come and say, “I intend to vote, you may put my name down as a messenger, and my boy will be happy to attend and do whatever you like.”

• 523.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Put it as you like, that is a bribe of 15s. – That is the way it is done; but nothing is paid until after the election.

• 524.

  (Mr. Holl.) I understand you to say, not only at this election, but at previous elections, there has been an excessive employment of that kind of labour ? – There may have been at some of them.