Hughes, Edwin | Day 19
Witness Type: Briber, Petition witness
Party: Conservative
Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 20
Witness Testimony:
- 19718.
(Mr. Holl.) That is how it was intended that the money should be distributed ? — Yes, that was considered as the best available means of distributing the money, without doing it wildly.
- 19719.
Who are the persons who had bringing-up lists ? — I do not know.
- 19720.
Have you no copies of those lists ? — No, but I have handed in a list of our committee, and from that I think I can tell you pretty nearly who they were.
- 19721.
I want a list of the bringing-up people ? — This (handing a paper) is a list of the bringing-up people for Deal and Walmer.
- 19722.
Have you the same for Sandwich ? — No. That was Mr. Cloke, and I left him alone.
- 19723.
Was any portion of this money spent at Sandwich ? — Yes. Undoubtedly he sent some of his money to Sandwich, but everything was paid through Olds.
- 19724.
Are these all the names that you are aware of, of persons that had bringing-up lists ? — Yes. Of course there may be some left out.
- 19725.
Can you remember any others ? — No. That was a list made out for the purpose of the petition.
- 19726.
Have you any paper at all that would enable you to correct this, by adding to it any other names ? — No. My memory is not so good as it was when I wrote that out.
- 19727.
You have no memorandum or paper that would assist you at all ? — No. Here (handing another paper) is a list of the general committee. It is a list of what I may call now the special committee.
- 19728.
I understand you to say that these are the only persons you are aware of, out of the general committee, who had bringing-up lists ? — Yes; who had any money.
- 19729.
Can you at all tell us what amounts each or any of these persons received ? — No. I left that entirely to Olds. I had nothing to do with that.
- 19730.
How was this list made out ? — From this list of the general committee.
- 19731.
How did you pick out the names from the general committee, of the persons who had what you term bringing-up lists ? — Because at the time of the election, those men who had the bringing-up lists, were, of course, in a different category to the people who had not, and they had certain work to do upon the day.
- 19732.
How did you know that these were the persons ? — Partly because those are the persons to whom I paid £6 apiece, and the people not upon that list were persons not paid at all, or if paid, they were paid by day-work.
- 19733.
I thought there were 42 paid canvassers ? — So there were; but all that are upon that list had bringing-up lists, and there may be a few others.
- 19734.
Can you give us any idea, from looking through the general committee, who the others might be ? — I tried to do it at the time of the petition, and I am sure I cannot do it now.
- 19735.
Have you ever applied to Olds to assist you ? —No. I understood that Olds had given you a list.
- 19736.
Yes, but Mr. Olds’ list does not make up the amount ? — You cannot get beyond the 850 at £3, and I fancy that goes beyond Olds.
- 19737.
The lists given to us by Mr. Olds of persons who received money from him show in round numbers about £1700 ? — Yes, you are about £850 short.
- 19738.
There are £850 more distributed than accounted for, or, I may say, that ought to have been distributed ? — Although your inquiries have been very exhaustive you might naturally expect that you would not get the whole of it out. There would sure to be a margin that you would not trace, but I have given you the full extent; 850 voters at £3 apiece.
- 19739.
(Mr. Jeune.) Why do you put 850 voters ? — Because that was the number upon the bringing-up lists. As the canvass progressed, and certain parties were able to say that certain men had promised them to vote, those bringing-up lists were gradually accumulated, till at last there were 850 upon the lists, and there were a lot of other people who had given promises to the committee. Then upon the Monday it became necessary, in consequence of our people having been bought up upon the other side, to counteract the Liberal bribery, and it was perfectly obvious that the people most open to the Liberal money would be found amongst the 850 upon the bringing-up lists, and the result of paying the 850 was, instead of their being undermined and half going upon the other side, they were kept together.
- 19740.
Was the £2500 fixed by its being at the rate of £3 a head ? — Yes, and then it was suggested, that we should go beyond the 850, but I said, “No more; all closed.”
- 19741.
(Mr. Holl.) When did you arrive at the 850 ? — Monday night, and I never budged from it. I would not move an inch. In the first place it was sufficient, if anything could be sufficient, and there is no use in doing more than is sufficient; it is only wasting your money. If you put enough water on to put the fire out which the other side had lit, that was sufficient.
- 19742.
You had drawn this money out before the Monday night ? — I had got it ready.
- 19743.
You had drawn the £2500 previously ? — The £2500 was drawn in the way you have had described.
- 19744.
It had been provided by the Monday ? — Yes, by Monday.
- 19745.
And part of it before the Monday ? — Only the £354 cheque that was sent up to London, and that was after the £1500 of Sir Julian Goldsmid had come down and we had felt the effect of it.
- 19746.
We know that the £1500 came down upon Friday afternoon, and it would be hardly possible that you should have felt the effect of it upon the Saturday. We have also evidence that none of it was distributed before the Monday ? — I differ from that entirely.
- 19747.
We have sworn testimony to that effect ? — I can prove that more than half of it was distributed in anticipation of the receipt of it.