Testimonies

Testimonies

• 375.

  When did you first communicate with him then ? – Immediately, in reply to his letter. I have not that letter here, but I can find it. It was before Lord Brabourne’s elevation to the Peerage, and before he came down. Sir Julian Goldsmid had heard of the report through the papers, and he immediately wrote to me to inquire whether I thought he would be an accepted candidate, if he came down, by the Liberal party. Then I wrote to him that we had heard nothing whatever of the matter, and communicated with those who I thought had any interest in it, promising that I would let him know again.

• 376.

  I daresay you can find the letter ? – I think I can. I will endeavour to find it.

• 377.

  Was there any further correspondence between you in writing ? – I think I wrote to him once afterwards, but I am not certain, reminding him that I would let him know.

• 378.

  I will ask you to produce the letter from Sir Julian Goldsmid, and copies of all letters that you wrote to him ? – Yes, I will endeavour to find them.

• 379.

  Were there any negotiations previously to that ? – With Sir Julian Goldsmid ?

• 380.

  With other people ? – Yes; I will not say negotiations, because we had none, but I think it was on a Tuesday (I cannot tell you what date that was) that I received a letter from Lord Brabourne, stating that Sir John Adye was desirous of getting into Parliament, and at the moment I received my letter he was on his way down here, and that I should receive a communication from him. I met him at the Sandwich Railway Station, and came down to Deal with him, where there were a few friends who had assembled – not more than half a dozen – and we then told him that Mr. Crompton Roberts had been in the field for some time, and that considerable expenses were being incurred. He immediately said he was not prepared to spend any money upon the election, and that he had been led to believe it would be an uncontested one. Under these circumstances I at once said, “You had better go back again,” and he returned to London immediately that night. There was no communication with him before, and there was nothing more than I have related to you now which passed at that meeting.

• 381.

  Was any sum mentioned which it would be necessary for him to expend ? – In all probability I might have told him that perhaps it would be necessary for him to be prepared with 2,000L. or something like that I think there was a sum of that kind mentioned.

• 382.

  Was it not more than that ? – No, I think – not.

• 383.

  Was he not told that he should be prepared to spend 4,000L ? – No, I do not recollect hearing that stated. I did not state that, but he might have been told so.

• 384.

  Who were the parties who were assembled to meet him ? – There was Mr. Edmund Brown, who is the agent for election expenses, and Mr. Edwin Cornwell.

• 385.

  Cannot you recollect any others ? – I can give them to you by referring or thinking upon them and the time, but there were five or six perhaps.

• 386.

  You cannot remember anybody else at the present moment ? – No, but there were several others. I can give them to you.

• 387.

  Perhaps you will kindly let us have them ? – I will do so.

• 388.

  Was any sum mentioned, or anything said about the sum which Mr. Crompton Roberts was spending ? – No ; I was living at Sandwich ; I had no idea.

• 389.

  What was said with regard to Mr. Crompton Roberts ? – It was only understood that he was spending a great deal of money here. It was simply rumour. Nobody could point out how it was, and if you asked in what way you could not ascertain.

• 390.

  Do you remember what was said by these gentlemen to Sir John Adye about the expenditure of Mr. Crompton Roberts ? – It was spoken of in a general way that great expenses were being incurred, and would have to be incurred, and therefore if he was not prepared, it would be better for him to retire ; in fact, they could not entertain him.

• 391.

  It was no use coming here unless he was willing to spend a considerable sum of money ? – Yes.

• 392.

  You say you think 2,000L. was mentioned ? – I think he was told 2,000L.

• 393.

  Was it not more than that ? – I do not think I mentioned more than 2,000L., and I think I told him that he would spend that in canvassing between Sandwich and Deal. I found at once he was not prepared to go through a contested election, and he at once said, “Then I am not prepared to spend the money.” It was an easy thing for me when he came to Deal to introduce him, and to say, “Sir John Adye is not prepared to contest a contested election,” and then he would have passed from Deal.

• 394.

  You think you cannot fight a contested election without spending 2,000L. and upwards ? – Yes.

• 395.

  Why is that ? – Simply on account of the great expenses which are incurred, many of them of a most irregular character, with regard to FLAGS, booths, and every expenditure of that kind, which is a very serious matter.

• 396.

  You think you cannot fight an election here without spending money in that way ? – From what I hear. I am not here on the spot. I only hear of it afterwards. Sandwich is comparatively a smaller thing as far as that goes.

• 397.

  But you think, from what you have heard and know, that you cannot fight an election here unless you are prepared to spend a very considerable sum of money in FLAGS, public-houses, and canvassers ? – Yes, I am obliged to state that as my candid opinion.

• 398.

  You cannot fight an election except by employing a great number of persons. Then Sir John Adye, as I understand you, intimated that he would not contest the borough ? – He said he was not prepared to fight a contested election at all, and that he had come down here under the impression that the seat would not be contested.

• 399.

  Then you communicated with Sir Julian Goldsmid ? – Then I communicated again with Sir Julian Goldsmid, and he wrote to me to say that he was one of the selected candidates for the University, and he could not give me a decided answer until the selection there was decided. Then I went up to him and said, “I must have an answer this very day. If you will say ‘No, you will not go down to the borough,’ I shall seek a candidate.”

• 400.

  And Sir Julian Goldsmid came back ? – And Sir Julian Goldsmid came back.

• 401.

  I suppose you had some conversation with him as to ways and means, and what was necessary in order to give him a chance of success ? – Yes, but there was no precise amount mentioned.

• 402.

  Tell us what took place between you and him with regard to that ? – In general words, I told him he could not contest the election for less than 3,000L.

• 403.

  And, I presume, his coming down intimated that he was willing to spend that amount ? – No ; he most indignantly replied that he could spend no money except upon legal expenses and so on ; but, having stated all that, he returned, and there was no further conversation. He did not assent to expenditure except legal expenditure ; but, on the contrary, he would not be returned by bribery, or anything of the kind. He afterwards returned to Sandwich with me.

• 404.

  Do you know what amount Sir Julian Goldsmid did pay down to either yourself or other agents ? – Yes, I know what I received myself and I have heard of the sum which Mr. Edwards received.