Testimonies

Brabourne, Lord | Day 20

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 20054.

  (Mr. Holl.) You were a candidate with Mr. Brassey for the borough of Sandwich at the election in April 1880 ? — Yes.

• 20055.

  You were returned together with him without any contest ? — Yes, without any contest. I should like to make one remark upon that, because it has been stated, I observe, in evidence, that the Conservative party did not get a candidate because they could not find anybody prepared to spend £5000 or £6000. I am bound to say that I think the Commissioners ought to know that there are other circumstances besides that which weighed materially with the constituency; it so happened that I had been instrumental mainly in obtaining for the constituency a railway from Dover to Deal, which was received with a great deal of favour by men of both sides, and, that added to my long connexion with the borough, gave me a very strong hold, and Mr. Brassey having a strong hold from his personal qualities, and from the great respect generally entertained for him, I was told by several of the leading Conservatives in Deal, so determined were they not to have a contest, and to pay us the compliment of an unopposed return, that about one hundred were prepared, if a Conservative had come down, to sign a round robin asking him to go away again, and to declare that if he would not they would vote for the sitting members as a mark of personal respect. I think that perhaps had something to do with there being no contest.

• 20056.

  I think those (handing two papers to the witness) are the returns of the expenses, one for Deal and Walmer, and the other for Sandwich ? — Yes.

• 20057.

  The one is a return of the election expenses in April 1880, for Deal and Walmer ? — Yes, I believe that is right.

• 20058.

  And the other is for Sandwich ? — Yes.

• 20059.

  For those amounts which are there returned as having been expended at that election represent the whole of the money that was expended in connexion with that election ? — As far as I know they do, but I think I ought to be perfectly candid with the Commissioners; the truth of the matter is, by private arrangement between Mr. Brassey and myself, all these things went through Mr. Brassey’s hands, and I was not called upon for anything at this uncontested election.

• 20060.

  As far as you are aware, do those returns represent the whole of the expenditure at that election ? — I believe they do; I am perfectly unaware of anything beyond.

• 20061.

  Are you aware of any money being spent in connexion with that election directly or indirectly beyond the amounts that are there mentioned ? — No, not a farthing. We were a very short time indeed in the borough.

• 20062.

  You are aware of no other money being spent by yourself, or by anybody else on behalf of yourself, or by Mr. Brassey on his behalf ? — No, I have not the slightest reason to suppose that there was anything improper or illegal in the election; we were a very little time in the borough, and we were advised that as it was to be no contest, our appearance there might give rise to political excitement, and perhaps bring on a contest which we were anxious to avoid. Upon that ground we were merely there during the election.

• 20063.

  There was one witness who said something about there having been a dinner given at that time ? — Not during the time of the election. Mr. Brassey and myself were in the habit of going down in the autumn, and there was a dinner at Sandwich before the election, but it had nothing to do with the election whatever.

• 20064.

  A dinner given by the constituents to you ? — No, I think it was given by us to the Corporation. There were men on both sides there. I had sat for 23 years and it appeared that there was no prospect of there being any contest, and we did not even know of the dissolution.

• 20065.

  (Mr. Jeune.) When do you say the dinner was ? — In the autumn, but I cannot give you the date; it was before there was any idea of a dissolution further of course, than the general knowledge that Parliament was drawing to its close.

• 20066.

  How many people were there at that dinner ? — Only the Corporation.

• 20067.

  Not 200 or 300 ? — No.

• 20068.

  Some people alluded to a great entertainment, or dinner, or something of that kind at which it was said 150 or 200 people sat down ? — Not for years back has that happened. There are always dinners with the Foresters and Odd Fellows which we had to attend, but I heard of no dinner of that kind at or during the election. I merely mentioned the Corporation dinner as a fact, but it really had nothing to do with the election, nor had we any reasons to apprehend any opposition at that time.

• 20069.

  (Mr. Holl.) We are of opinion that in the absence of there having been any corrupt practice in the general election of 1880, we are not at liberty to go behind that election, and therefore we need not trouble you further.

  By the Corrupt Practices Act, 15th and 16th Victoria, chapter 57, section 6, the Commissioners are directed, “To enquire into any corrupt practices that may have been committed at the election with respect to which they are directed to enquire, and in case the Commissioners find that corrupt practices have been committed at that election, it shall be lawful for them to make the like enquiries concerning the latest or previous election for the same borough or place, and, upon their finding corrupt practices to have been committed at that election, it shall be lawful for them to make the like enquiries concerning the election immediately previous thereto. But whereupon the enquiry as aforesaid concerning any election, said Commissioners do not find that corrupt practices have been committed thereat, they shall not enquire concerning any previous election.”

  We are of opinion, therefore, that no corrupt practices having been proved to have taken place at the general election in 1880 we have no power or jurisdiction to enquire with respect to any previous election ? — I have been advised the same way, but I can only say if it were a matter within the scope of this inquiry I should be perfectly prepared to give an account of everything I have done since I have sat for the borough, and, in fact, I have extracted from my banker’s account –

• 20070.

  We cannot go into it partially. We are of opinion that we have no jurisdiction to go behind the general election of 1880, and it would not certainly do for us to go into it partially ? — Then I hope it will be perfectly understood that there is neither concealment, or for a moment any wish for concealment, on my part.

• 20071.

  That we quite understand. We think we have no power or jurisdiction to go behind the general election of 1880 ? — What I feel is that some statements have been made by one or two gentlemen in the evidence reflecting upon the borough generally, especially upon the Liberal party, as having introduced corrupt practices, and I should have been very glad to negative it by my evidence.

• 20072.

  You see if we go into your evidence we must go into the evidence of everybody ? — That is true.

• 20073.

  I think it is impossible to hear the evidence of yourself or anybody else without going into the whole 10 Nov. 1880 question, and we are of opinion that we have no jurisdiction to do it. Therefore we think we cannot go beyond what we have already done ? — What I feel very strongly is this, I have known the borough for a good many years, and I find it very much abused now and I should like to have said a word or two to show that there is some good in it. Such a thing as theft in Deal or Walmer is almost unknown. They are as honest a race of men as you will find anywhere, and I do not believe that the bribery and corruption, which has proved to exist, ever would have existed if there had not been very great temptation held out to the people by men of superior position, who are more to blame than the poor men themselves. I shall be very happy to answer any other questions the Commissioners may deem it expedient to put to me.

• 20074.

  We think for the reasons we have mentioned that we have not the power to go further. — Then of course I can do no more.