Foord, John Ross | Day 18

Eldest brother of Thomas Hellyer Foord of Rochester. Detailed family history can be found on Medway Memories. Paid expenses for Julian Goldsmid through his family firm John Foord & Sons. He had known Julian Goldsmid for 10 years during which time Sir Julian had been the MP for Rochester. Testified that many of the expenses paid out on Sir Julian’s behalf related to the Rochester Election.

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

  • 19073.

    (Mr. Holl.) Do you reside at Rochester ? — Yes.

  • 19074.

    And are you a member of the firm of Foord and Sons ? — Yes.

  • 19075.

    How long have you known Sir Julian Goldsmid ? — About 10 years.

  • 19076.

    Have you been in the habit of acting for him ? — I do not call it acting.

  • 19077.

    In what respect have you in any way acted for him ? — At Rochester I have paid his subscriptions and registration expenses, together with many other expenses. Sometimes during the year he may have given me something on account, but, generally speaking, it has been an account extending, say from the 1st July to the 30th June, and then a payment has generally been made which squared the year.

  • 19078.

    Have you ever settled any other matters for him, or paid for him, in any way in respect of any other matter than his registration expenses and subscriptions ? — In the year 1873 there was a company formed to purchase an estate, and the shares were £100 shares, and Sir Julian Goldsmid took 15 shares at £100 each, and the money that was necessary to pay for those was sent through me. In the year 1875 we increased the capital. I should say that I am a shareholder as well. It was when we first purchased it, a leasehold estate, and we converted it into a freehold estate, and the consequence was we had to take up some more capital ; and there was a further £600 paid in 1875, making 21 shares at £100 each, and those shares stand in my name. Sir Julian Goldsmid has the shares, with a memorandum to the effect that I hold the shares in trust for him. Since that time we have declared interim dividends at Midsummer and at Christmas, and the shareholders have met, and the directors have passed the accounts, and further dividends have been paid ; and Sir Julian Goldsmid’s share of those dividends I send him every half year as soon as I receive them. That is the only money transaction, other than Rochester, I have had with him.

  • 19079.

    What have you been in the habit of paying for Sir Julian Goldsmid at Rochester ? — Registration expenses and subscriptions.

  • 19080.

    Are those subscriptions to charities ? — Yes, and general party expenses.

  • 19081.

    Have you been in the habit of paying his election expenses ? — With regard to that perhaps you will allow me just to say that the amounts I have paid for Sir Julian Goldsmid under the head of Rochester have no regard, directly or indirectly, with the Sandwich election, and although I shall be quite willing, if required, eventually to answer all questions relating to Rochester elections, I respectfully submit to the learned President and the Commissioners whether they consider an inquiry into the expenditure at Rochester a subject for inquiry in this Court, because such an inquiry would really be an inquiry into Rochester election matters.

  • 19082.

    Still I think it is material to this inquiry, at any rate to this extent, to know whether you have been in the habit of paying election expenses for Sir Julian Goldsmid at Rochester ? — It is impossible to separate it. If a man is paying expenses of any kind connected with Rochester, it is impossible to separate them from election expenses. The only thing I would ask is this: if you should desire to go into an inquiry with regard to the Rochester expenditure, that you would allow me time to prepare a statement, in which case I shall be quite in a position to fully answer every inquiry you may think fit to put to me. If you ask me the question as to what money I have received from Sir Julian Goldsmid since March 1st, 1880, I shall be quite willing to give it, but you must admit that that amount must have something to do with the Rochester election.

  • 19083.

    (Mr. Holl.) It is material to ask Mr Foord whether he has been in the habit of paying Sir Julian Goldsmid’s expenses at elections at Rochester, and possibly to what extent ; but at present it does not appear to me to come within the scope of our inquiry to follow out how that money has been expended. The question whether or not Mr. Foord has been in the habit of paying moneys in connexion with election expenses at Rochester I think is important.

  • 19084.

    (Mr. Turner.) You have told us that you have paid certain expenses connected with his being a member, such as registration expenses and so on, and the question is whether you paid other moneys besides ? — No doubt I have, connected with the party expenses for holding our position as a party at Rochester ; there cannot be the slightest doubt about that.

  • 19085.

    (After an interval.) (Mr. Holl.) We have been considering this question, and I think you may take it that we shall only ask you such questions as we think ought to be answered, and you may therefore take the fact of a question being put as an intimation upon our part that we think it ought to be answered ? — If I can in any way answer any question without leading to an inquiry into what you may call Rochester matters, I will answer it in the freest manner possible.

  • 19086.

    To what extent, in round numbers, have you been in the habit of paying money in respect of registration, subscriptions, and so forth, per annum for Sir Julian Goldsmid ? — Registration expenses means fighting registration and all manner of things. Would you like me to state what Sir Julian Goldsmid’s expenses have been, upon the average, for the last 10 years ?

  • 19087.

    What, about, has been the average expenditure for registration and subscriptions ? — The difficulty I am in is this: I shall state a thing now, if the inquiry is gone into, which will be mere guess, whereas I have got all the particulars that would enable me to give you an answer correctly. I must ask you to excuse me from answering in detail, because sometimes registration expenses are much heavier than at others. As you know, when we fight hard registration expenses are much heavier than when there is a quiet registration. I would therefore much prefer, with your permission, not going into the details, because, as I have said before, I can prove every farthing I paid.

  • 19088.

    I only ask you to give a general notion ? — Will you say that it shall not act against me ?

  • 19089.

    I take it as merely that you are giving to the best of your belief a general estimate, but at the same time I will get you to give it as accurately as you can. What, upon an average, has been the expenditure for registration and subscriptions ? — With the strict understanding that I am only giving an approximate amount, and that I am not giving anything that I can be cross-examined to, as having said one thing, whereas it turns out to be another.

  • 19090.

    I think I have explained very clearly to you what it is we want; at the present moment I do not propose to ask you to give us details, nor do I propose to tie you down to exact figures, all I ask you to give us now is, as nearly as you can to the best of your belief, a general estimate of what you think has been the expenditure made through you; or perhaps the better way will be to take it separately. What has been the average amount paid for subscriptions ? — Subscriptions might be £170 a year.

  • 19091.

    Now as regards registration expenses ? — Registration expenses about £150 a year. I think you might take it in round numbers, because there are many other expenses, at £500 a year.

  • 19092.

    (Mr. Turner.) Do you include in that the party expenses that you spoke of ? — £170 subscriptions, and £150 registration expenses, makes £320, and that leaves £180 for what you might call party expenses.

  • 19093.

    (Mr. Holl.) That is independent, I suppose, of what you may have paid at election times ? — At election times more would be paid, but if you take an average of 10 years it comes to about £500 a year; some years less, and some years more. If we have party expenses, that is party fighting, there is no doubt about it that there are more expenses.

  • 19094.

    I understand you to say that during the 10 years there has been an average of about £170 for subscriptions ? — Yes, an average.

  • 19095.

    And an average of £150 per annum for registration expenses ? — Yes.

  • 19096.

    And you say an average of about £180 a year for party expenses ? — Yes.

  • 19097.

    Do I understand that that is all you have paid in connexion with elections at all ? — That is all I have paid for Sir Julian Goldsmid in connexion with elections, taking the average.

  • 19098.

    You say in those years where there have been elections there would be more expenses than in other years ? — Yes.

  • 19099.

    I suppose the subscriptions would not be much more ? — The subscriptions would be a very little more ; they would not vary with the elections, but they do vary.

  • 19100.

    And the registration expenses vary, I suppose ? — Yes.

  • 19101.

    Not with the elections specially ? — No.

  • 19102.

    You say the expenses of the party in connexion with the election expenses would be £180 a year upon the average ? — Yes.