Testimonies

Belsey, Francis Flint | Day 16

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

• 18325.

  (Mr. Jeune.) You live at Rochester, I believe ? — Yes.

• 18326.

  What is your occupation ? — I am now retired. I was a corn merchant.

• 18327.

  You have been acquainted with Sir Julian Goldsmid for a considerable time ? — Yes.

• 18328.

  How long ? — For the last 12 or 13 years, I should think; since he has represented the city, and perhaps a little time before that.

• 18329.

  You have been a supporter of his all that time ? — Yes,

• 18330.

  I think you have been on his committee, the Liberal committee, I think he called it ? — No, I have been an active member.

• 18331.

  Have you had anything to do with the management of his affairs at Rochester ? — Not as regards the financial arrangements. I have had a good deal to do with the organisation of canvassing and speaking at meetings and so on, but I have never had anything to do with the financial arrangements in any way.

• 18332.

  Sir Julian Goldsmid or somebody asked you to go and speak for him at Sandwich ? — Yes, he telegraphed to me,

• 18333.

  And you went down when ? — Upon the Wednesday,

• 18334.

  And you spoke at a meeting that evening ? — Yes.

• 18335.

  What day did you go back to Rochester ? — Very early Thursday morning.

• 18336.

  We have heard that you went to Mr Foord. What conversation did you have with Sir Julian Goldsmid upon the subject of your going to Mr Foord ? — Sir Julian Goldsmid told me that his agents had been asking him for a sum of money, about £1500, and he wanted that promptly to meet the expenses of the election. He had decided to remain and fight it, and therefore the money had to be found. It was rather a lavish place for expenditure and he requested me to see Messrs Foord, old friends of his, and ask them whether they would immediately send down the money and I did. I did not see the money go, but I believe they carried out his wishes.

• 18337.

  Did Sir Julian Goldsmid give you any reason for askiug you to take the message ? — Simply because he wanted it in a hurry and he had no cheques with him, and he thought that was the quickest way of getting it down. He requested me to see them on my return to Rochester and I did.

• 18338.

  At what time did Sir Julian Goldsmid say they were to bring the money down ? — Friday or Saturday. He said that Mr Edwards was asking for it at once.

• 18339.

  That was Wednesday evening ? — Yes, and I went back the Thursday morning.

• 18340.

  The money was not wanted till Friday or Saturday ? — He merely said, “At once,” I do not remember anything about Friday or Saturday. I understood it was immediately wanted for the purposes of the election.

• 18341.

  Did you have the conversation upon the Wednesday or the Thursday morning ? — I think that Sir Julian Goldsmid mentioned over night, and when walking with me to the station upon the Thursday morning he repeated the request, or completed it, by asking me to do it. I think we spoke about it in the evening before we went to bed and again in the morning.

• 18342.

  Did he tell you that he had no cheques ? — Yes, he said he had no cheques with him, and mentioned the difficulty of getting them down as quickly as he wanted it, and he asked me upon that ground to see Messrs Foord and get them kindly to send the money down as promptly as they could.

• 18343.

  Did he at all consult you as to getting the money, or the amount of it, or anything of that kind ? — He merely mentioned the difficulty he was in in obtaining it, and complained of the lavish expenditure.

• 18344.

  He mentioned the difficulty he was in ? — Yes. Of course he could not fight it purely because he was already committed before he got there. He was inclined to go away and leave it but he had made up his mind upon full consideration to stop, and he wanted this money for the lavish expenditure which seemed to be the custom of the place.

• 18345.

  You used a phrase which I think ought not to pass unnoticed; that he could not fight the election purely ? — I mean that he could not claim the seat by acts that had been done before he had got there.

• 18346.

  He could not claim the seat you say ? — What I mean is, he seemed to have been there without the possibility of carrying the election through as he would have done if he had had the reins from the outset.

• 18347.

  (Mr. Holl.) Do you mean bribery ? — No, engagements of commitee rooms, and the expenditure that we saw going on all round in the free employment of labour of every kind. It looked to me as if the election were being fought free handedly.

• 18348.

  (Mr. Jeune.) The impression that Sir Julian Goldsmid left upon your mind was that he at that time had made up his mind to fight the election through ? — Yes.

• 18349.

  And knew that he must fight it through by the employment of illegitimate means ? — I do not say that.

• 18350.

  I do not say bribery, but illegitimate means ? — They might have been possibly questionable means, but whether they were legitimate or illegitimate would have to be left to the decision of the election judges. He was not able to prevent them, but I will say lavish means.

• 18351.

  Did he tell you that there was any difficulty in getting money from not having cheques ? — Yes, he did, and he said that he wanted to get the money promptly because Mr Edwards was asking for prompt payment.

• 18352.

  Did he consult you in any way as to how that difficulty was to be met ? — Do you mean the difficulty of getting the money ?

• 18353.

  Yes ? — He merely mentioned that he thought I might get it sent down through the Foords, and I said no doubt they would willingly do it. That was the only conversation we had.

• 18354.

  The suggestion came from Sir Julian Goldsmid that you should go to Messrs Foord and tell them to send the money ? — Yes.