Epps, William Edward | Day 13

Received £6 – £3 which was for his father, Thomas Epps from George Lock, plus £5 from a Mr Baker although he wasn’t sure of the name. Presumed to be Henry Minter Baker in Dover who was manager of the Dickenson’s wholesale grocery stores mentioned in the testimony.

He was called to the earlier Petition trial and gave different answers saying he hadn’t received any money or paid any money to anyone. Admitted that George Hooper and told him to keep quiet about the money. Listed as a briber but the only money he handed out was the £3 he had received from Mr Lock for his father. Accounts differ as to what his father received as he was ill in hospital at the time and told his son to keep some of the money to pay for the ‘necessaries’ he needed.

Witness Type: Bribee, Briber, Freeman, Petition witness

Party: Conservative

Witness Testimony:

  • 15650.

    (Mr. Holl.) Where do you live ? — The Butchery, Sandwich. 

  • 15651.

    Are you a freeman ? — Yes. 

  • 15652.

    What did you receive ?  — Do you mean of Mr. Lock ? 

  • 15653.

    Of anyone ? — Of Mr. Lock ; 3L. for myself and 3L. for my father, who was ill at the time. 

  • 15654.

    What was his Christian name ? — Thomas Epps. 

  • 15655.

    Did you keep 3L for yourself ? — Yes. 

  • 15656.

    That was for your vote ? — Yes, I suppose so. 

  • 15657.

    Did you give 3L. to your father ? — No, he was ill at the time, and I did not give it to him, but I told him I had received it, and he wished me to keep it to buy him neccessaries with in his illness. 

  • 15658.

    Was he at that time in the hospital ? — Yes. 

  • 15659.

    You were to spend the money for the benefit of your father ? — Yes. 

  • 15660.

    He told you to do that ? — Yes. 

  • 15661.

    Did you get any more money ? — Yes; I got 5L. from someone, but I am not certain of the name; he was nearly a stranger ; I think it was Baker, but I would not be quite certain. 

  • 15662.

    Did not you see the person who gave it to you ? Yes, but I did not know who he was ; I thought he was a Baker. 

  • 15663.

    You mean you thought his name was Baker ? — Yes, I thought so, but I would not be quite positive.

  • 15664.

    Is that Mr. Henry Baker, who is a traveller of Messrs. Dickinson, of Dover ? — I could not say who he was, to be certain. 

  • 15665.

    You think so ? — Yes, I think so, but I am not quite certain. 

  • 15666.

    Does anybody else occur to you from whom you could have got it but Mr. Baker ? — No one else. 

  • 15667.

    So far as you know you got that 5L. from Mr. Baker, who is a traveller for Messrs. Dickinson ? — Yes.

  • 15668.

    You know Baker well enough, do not you ? — No, but I thought he was a Baker. 

  • 15669.

    Why should you think he was a baker if you did not know him ? — He used to live in Sandwich, and, of course, young people grow up. 

  • 15670.

    You think it is the same man ? — Yes. 

  • 15671.

    Have you any real doubt about it ? — No, I fancy it is him, but I would not like to be quite positive. 

  • 15672.

    Did you receive anything more from anyone ? — No. 

  • 15673.

    Nobody at all ? — No, no one else named it to me. 

  • 15674.

    You were called at the trial of the election petition ? — Yes. 

  • 15675.

    And you were asked distinctly whether you received any money from anyone at all ? — No, I was not asked that question. 

  • 15676.

    Pardon me. I will read you the questions you were asked : ” Did you get any money from a Mr. Hooper,” and you say, ” “No ; ” and then you are asked, “Or from Mr. George Lock,” and you say, “No ; ” then that was not true ? — I was not asked that question. 

  • 15677.

    Yes you were indeed, because I have got the shorthand writer’s note of it. Then you are asked by the judge, “Did you get any money from either of those persons,” and you say, “No, not at all, I had nothing to do with it whatever.” You must have known that that was untrue, and it is no use making it worse now. You knew perfectly well that you were then being asked whether you had received any money in connection with the election. Then the next question is, “Did you get any money at all from anybody,” and you say, “No, none whatever” ? — I was asked if I took any money to my father and whether I took any money to Mr. Bishop. 

  • 15678.

    You were asked the very questions that I have read to you and those are your answers, and now you say it was not true, but you did receive 3L. from Mr. George Lock and 5L. from Mr. Baker ? — Yes. 

  • 15679.

    And both of those sums were to vote at the election ?  — I suppose so.