Hall, Thomas Cave | Day 11

Advised Sir Julian that he should not be bribing and stated that if his advice had been taken then Sir Julian would no doubt be in the seat. Paid a retainer of £50 and the remainder was in payment of his expenses.

Witness Type: Other

Party: Liberal

Witness Testimony:

  • 13603.

    (Mr. Holl.) You are a solicitor ? — I am.

  • 13604.

    You sent in .an account did you not to Sir Julian Goldsmid’s agent for a retaining fee of 50 guineas and for expenses 13L. 16s. 9d.,, expenses incurred by you with respect to out-voters ? — Yes. 

  • 13605.

    Did anyone promise you that retaining fee ? — Not at all. 

  • 13606.

    Had you any engagement ? — When I say no one promised me, I mean to say that I was retained. 

  • 13607.

    Who by ? — By Mr. Edwards, and subsequently by Mr. Emmerson. 

  • 13608.

    Could you tell us what Mr. Edwards said to you. Do you remember what passed between you and Mr. Edwards ? — It was very simple. He said, “I understand the Liberal Association think you ought to be retained” (I think it was something of that sort) “therefore you may consider yourself retained” ; I had previously conversed with Mr. Cornwell on the subject, and the fee was laid as being the same amount as I had received on a former occasion. 

  • 13609.

    You had on a former occasion, years before, received the same fees ? — Yes. 

  • 13610.

    Now the 13L. 16s. 9d. Can you tell us how that was expended ? — One payment  — the largest one — was a sum of 7L. 5s. , which I paid to Mr Laidlow for his expenses of his journey from Glasgow — his railway expenses. 

  • 13611.

    What position of life is Mr. Laidlow in ? — He is a large ironfounder, and the proprietor of the pier here. 

  • 13612.

    He would come first class ? — I suppose so, he said so. 

  • 13613.

    He would be entitled to ? — He gave me what be charged. 

  • 13614.

    Did he give you an account of his expenses ? — I will tell you exactly what he said to me. He told me he had paid his fare from Glasgow to London and back 6L., and from London to Deal and back 1L. 5s. With respect to the railway fare from London to Deal and back, I happen to know it is correct. With respect to the 6L. I could only take his word. 

  • 13615.

    That is sufficient with regard to that. That is 7L. out of 13L., what is the other part of it ? — I paid 1L. 5s. to Mr. Allen for his expenses from London and back. 

  • 13616.

    In what position of life is he, would he come first class ? — He said so, and I took his receipt, and made them state the fact. 

  • 13617.

    (Mr. Jeune.) You gave it him as his exact railway fare ? — That is the exact railway fare first class. 

  • 13618.

    And you gave it him as his exact railway fare ? —Yes. 

  • 13619.

    (Mr. Holl.) It was what he told you he had expended ? — Yes. 

  • 13620.

    That is 9L., what is the other made up of ? — The remainder of what I have charged was paid in incidental and personal expenses in canvassing  — payments for FLAGS and CARRIAGES to various places. 

  • 13621.

    Your own expenses ?  — Yes. I paid perhaps 5s., or 6s., or 10s. a day, or something of that sort. 

  • 13622.

    Your own personal expenses for cabs, CARRIAGES, and that sort of thing ? — Yes, and I took an account. I ticked them down there and then, the same day ; sometimes 5s., and sometimes 7L. I do not think it ever exceeded 10s or 15s. 

  • 13623.

    (Mr. Turner.) You received 15L. on account ? — Yes, and gave credit for the balance. 

  • 13631.

    Witness recalled and further examined. (Mr. Holl.) Were you at all aware of money being spent in bribing voters ? — Only by repute. I totally disapproved of bribery altogether. 

  • 13632.

    When did you first hear it, after the election or before ? — I heard it when Mr. Roberts was canvassing, before Sir Julian came. 

  • 13633.

    You heard it, I suppose, on both sides ? — No, I did not hear of anything about Sir Julian, because he had not arrived. 

  • 13634.

    Did you hear afterwards ? — I heard afterwards that there was a good deal of bribery, but I set my face against it, and therefore did not listen much. 

  • 13635.

    But you heard rumours of bribery on both sides ? — Yes. 

  • 13636.

    But have you any knowledge of it yourself ? — I have no personal knowledge. 

  • 13637.

    Did you yourself in any way countenance it ? — No, not a shilling. I was advising altogether that Sir Julian Goldsmid should not bribe at all, and if my advice had been taken he would have had his seat now, I expect.

  • 13638.

    (Mr. Jeune.) Who did you give that advice to ? — Generally. Whenever I met any of the committee, it was a general observation of mine. 

  • 13639.

    Did you have any conversation with Mr. Edwards on the subject ? — I think not. I think he might have been present when I said it. I did not encourage the matter at all.