Testimonies

Lewis, George Henry | Day 6

Witness Type: Other, Petition witness

Party: Liberal

Other Days The Witness Was Called On: Day 16 | Day 18

Witness Testimony:

• 5704.

  (The witness.) Sir on the Thursday subsequent to the election, Sir Julian Goldsmid called upon me, and brought with him a list of the PUBLIC-HOUSES which had been hired by the Conservatives, and a list of the public-houses which had been hired by the Liberals. He also brought with him the papers with reference to the REGATTA, papers with reference to the hiring of the pier, tickets for free admission, and some other documents, and expressed his desire to petition against the election of Mr. Crompton Roberts.

  I then made certain inquiry from Sir Julian (Goldsmid what his object was to petition, and whether he wished to have the seat. He stated No, that he would not sit for the place under any circumstances, if he sat for life. He had no bad feeling against Mr. Crompton Roberts, but he considered that such gross irregularities and improprieties had been committed down at Sandwich that he was desirous of petitioning with a view of obtaining permission that the whole matter might be investigated, and he also gave me instructions to make as much inquiry as I possibly could with reference to the practices of the Liberals, as also the Conservatives, as he had no desire whatever to conceal anything connected with either his side or the other side, but wished every possible fact collected.

  I then inquired from Sir Julian how much money he had himself expended in connection with the election ; he then told me of the cheques which he had paid, the cheque that Mr. Emmerson had had, two cheques, I think, that he had paid to Mr. Edwards, and that he had further paid to Mr. Edwards a sum of 1,500L. He explained to me that the 1,500L. had not been paid direct by his cheque, and gave me, in fact, the explanation that he has given to you, that he had no cheques with him, that he had exhausted his cheques, that he had written up, that Mr. Edwards had pressed him for money, and that, Mr. Belsey being on the spot, and Mr. Foord being a gentleman who had paid for him, for many years, large sums of money, he asked Mr. Belsey to ask Mr. Foord to send 1,500L., and of course in any dealing afterwards with Mr. Edwards I always debited him with the sum of 1,500L.

  I think it is only just to Sir Julian to state that he had stated that to me at the time, and between himself and myself it was treated as if it had been a cheque paid by him on account of the election expenses. I then sent clerks down to collect evidence. Sir Julian also informed me that he desired no further communication with reference to the accounts so far as Mr. Emmerson was concerned, for whom he had entertained a very high respect, and as far as Mr. Edwards was concerned, that any communication should be made through me, and that I should take care that no payments were made except such as were properly chargeable against him with reference to the election.

  I sent clerks and agents down at once, and of course I found the greatest possible difficulty to collect evidence. Neither the Liberal side nor the Conservative aide would give the least information with reference to what had gone on, but in the particulars I delivered I think I did manage to get very reliable information with reference to the persons who bribed on the Conservative side, and the persons who received bribes upon the Conservative side, and immediately; sufficient evidence had had been obtained Counsels opinion having been taken, the petition was filed.

  Sir Julian explained to me from the very first that his object in filing that petition was a public object ; that he had no private motive or feeling whatever ; that he considered he had been badly treated ; that the election had been conducted most improperly and most unfairly ; that he was anxious that no other candidate should ever be got down to Sandwich to be treated in a similar way, and that, therefore, he was desirous, in the public interest, of having a Commission. From the first to the very last, I think, he has never swerved from that motive. I explained to him that it might be attended with very considerable expense, he said he did not care anything about the expense, but that he was determined to have the matter investigated to the utmost. The Petition was filed, with the result, I think, that the Commissioners know.

  I communicated with Mr. Edwards, and I communicated with Mr. Emmerson, and Mr. Edwards informed me, at an early date, that bribery had been perpetrated on the side of the Liberals, that he had no doubt whatever that bribery had also been perpetrated on the Conservative side. I communicated that fact to Sir Julian, and I believe it was the first intimation that he really had of actual bribery having been perpetrated on his side. Sir Julian then gave me instructions to spare no one, he said, “Let the whole inquiry be as full and as public |as it possibly can,” and the petition went on.

  I remember perfectly well that Sir Julian communicated to me the offer which had been made to him by the person he designates by the letter X, which he indignantly refused, he being determined to listen to nothing but an inquiry into the whole matter. The petition was heard, and the result arrived at, that the Commissioners know. (Mr. Holl.) There is just one matter I might ask you ; do you remember whether you received from Mr. Outwin a list of the persons ? — I did, and I have brought and handed it to your secretary this morning.

• 5705.

  (Mr. Jeune.) Did you give in the particulars all the information substantially that you were able to collect, or that you now know of ? — I put in the particulars all the information so far as it was permissible for me to do so against the Conservative candidate. Of course it was not permissible for me to put in the Liberal bribery.

• 5706.

  “Permissible” is hardly the word for it ? — “Permissible” is simply pertinent to the case. The particulars were settled by Counsel.

• 5707.

  I am asking for a different purpose. What I want to know is this, do those particulars contain all the information which you can give us with regard to bribery by the Conservatives ? — They do.

• 5708.

  Since the filing of the particulars did there come to your knowledge any further acts of bribery or treating ? — There did not .

• 5709.

  So that the particulars tell us all you can tell us ? — So far as I know.

• 5710.

  So far as the Conservatives are concerned ? — Yes.

• 5711.

  As regards corrupt practices on the Liberal side, what information can you give us any more than Mr. Edwards’s list ? — Nothing more but the statement by Mr. Edwards that they had been committed on the Liberal side. I think Mr. Edwards has stated that to the Commissioners. .

• 5712.

  You know of course how that 1,500L was applied ? — Mr. Edwards did not tell me he applied that 1,500L. in that way. Mr. Edwards informed me that he had received this 1,500L, but that he had money of his own in hand, that he was considerably out of pocket at the time that 1,500L. arrived, and that that repaid him a portion of the money which he had spent.

• 5713.

  I was first going to ask you this, besides the money that Sir Julian Goldsmid paid himself, or which was found by Messrs. Ford, do you know of any other money being spent on the Liberal side in this election ? — I do not.

• 5714.

  You have not heard of any ? — I have not heard of any, and I do not believe any other was spent except that Mr. Edwards, upon making up his accounts, contends that he is entitled to a larger sum, taking into account not only the money he has spent in bribery, but also in the management of the election generally.

• 5715.

  Do you know that Mr. Emmerson had 200L. of that 1,500L. ? — I was not aware of it until I read Mr. Emmerson’s evidence.

• 5716.

  Here ? — Quite so.

• 5717.

  So that when you squared accounts, if I may so express it, with Mr. Emmerson by sending him as you did a cheque for 350L. you did not then know that he had received 200L. ? — I did not.

• 5718.

  As you have told us, directly after the election was over you knew from Sir Julian Goldsmid that Mr. Edwards had received that 1,500L. ? — Yes, and I believed, until I heard Mr. Emmerson’s evidence, that Mr. Edwards had received the whole of the 1,500L.

• 5719.

  Did you ask Mr. Edwards to account for that 1,500L. ? — Certainly.

• 5720.

  What account did he give you of the way in which he had spent that 1,500L. ? — I asked him why in his accounts he had not given Sir Julian credit for 1,500L. that he had received, and then he said that money had been expended partly in bribery. He did not seem to wish to talk much about it, but that is what he said. I said at once, “I can recognise nothing of the sort. Sir Julian’s object is to have an enquiry into the whole of this matter. If you have chosen to indulge in these practices for the party you must pay for it.”

• 5721.

  When was it he told you first that this money had been spent in bribery ? — I should say, very shortly after my instructions were given to me by Sir Julian, probably within a week or ten days, it might have been a fortnight. It was upon the first occasion that Mr. Edwards came up to me.

• 5722.

  Did he tell you how much of the 1,500L. had gone in bribery ? — No, he did not.

• 5723.

  Did he tell you to whom he had paid the 1,500L. or any part of it, for the purposes of bribery ? — I think he mentioned the name of Outwin. May I be permitted to state that Mr. Edwards never ear-marked this 1,500L. as being spent in bribery at all. Mr. Edwards always informed me that there were, I think, 700L. or 800L. which he had expended of his own money at the time that he received this 1,500L. from Sir Julian Goldsmid, and that then he was in pocket, having paid himself about 700L., which he had to go on with the election. He never ear-marked this 1,500L. as being spent in bribery at all; on the contrary he said it was other moneys that were spent in bribery.

• 5724.

  Did he not tell you how much he had spent for illegitimate purposes ? — No, he did not.

• 5725.

  You were settling accounts with him ? — Ah ! but I have not settled accounts with him. I have refused to recognise his account.

• 5726.

  I know, but you settled accounts in this sense, that you refused to pay them ? — I have.

• 5727.

  What I am driving at is this. You have settled accounts in the sense that you arrived at the conclusion that he ought to have no more money F— Mr. Edwards never put it to me to settle accounts. He was always trying to get me to pay some money on account, either 500L, or something of that sort, and it has never come to a question of really my saying to him, “Put down before me the moneys that you have paid in legal ways, and let me check them.” It has never come to that. I said, “I will not pay any illegal payments, and unless you are in a position to show what I have to pay I will not do so. It is not the least object whether it is kept back or not, but I decline to pay you unless you can show me the payments which Sir Julian ought legally to make.”

• 5728.

  This is the letter I think that you wrote ? — I have written several letters.

• 5729.

  There is one final letter to Mr. Edwards ? — I have had one or two interviews with Mr. Edwards since then. I am speaking more of interviews than letters.

• 5730.

  There was a letter from you to Mr. Edwards ? — I dare say, but I mean I have had two or three interviews.

• 5731.

  There was a letter in which you said substantially that he had had quite enough money already for all legitimate purposes, and that you must decline paying him ? — Very probably.

• 5732.

  At that time had you learned from Mr. Edwards how much he had expended on illegitimate purposes ? — The greater part, I think, of Mr. Edwards’ account is for illegitimate purposes. I consider those public-houses, I consider the flags, I consider the rope, and all the gigantic charges which were made, illegal purposes, but I separated those from actual, what I call of course, bribery. I have refused to pay the amounts expended, enormous sums, for ropes, flags and so forth, and I said, “You have had quite enough at present, and I decline to pay any more, unless you can show me that I am bound to pay.”

• 5733.

  You say that Mr. Edwards never told you what sums he actually expended ? — No; he never has. He has given me an account of items, but only items containing this bribery. I have never communicated with Sir Julian about the details of these accounts, because I considered I should pay whatever I thought was right ; he left me a sort of general authority, and I have never bothered him about the accounts.